5 ms·

> Once self driving cars reach a certain penetration level I wonder how long it'll take the remaining human drivers to start taking advantage of that fact by as

by maratd 11y ago

> Once self driving cars reach a certain penetration level I wonder how long it'll take the remaining human drivers to start taking advantage of that fact by assuming most cars will automatically stop for them when they try stupid maneuvers like this one. I don't understand this argument. If you do something abusive in front of me ... I will do what a robot will do. I will stop. Because I don't want to crash. I might open the window and yell some profanities at you ... but I can do that anyway, regardless of who triggered the stop, whether it was me or the on-board computer. If you're arguing that the on-board computer has better reflexes and therefore people will engage in even more demented behavior ... that penetration level would have to be 99%. If it's something like 90%, then 1 out of 10 times you do something that abusive will result in a crash and you'll die. By the time penetration reaches 99%, you essentially have all cars with automation built in and it's likely that using that automation will be mandatory. Cars that aren't automated will be illegal on public roads exactly because of this problem.

xgbi 11y ago
No you don't understand: if 99% of the traffic is automated and resilient to idiots, what prevents me from passing a red light? What prevents me from going the wrong way on the motorway? You'll have overstressed idiots that will get that and start driving like fools to meet their appointments. It has already happened in some way: the overconfident TMAXes that don't think the laws of traffic apply to them.
- lsaferite 11y ago
  TMAXes?
  - vmarsy 11y ago
    The parent is probably from Europe and refers to TMAX Scooters, http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tmax-672750-bike-motorcycle.html http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tmax-672750-bike-motorcyc... These are very powerful scooters, almost as fast as motorcycles but they don't require manual speed shifting, making. Usually drivers or those are reckless in cities like Paris
- jeremysmyth 11y ago
  what prevents me from passing a red light? What prevents me from going the wrong way on the motorway? Exactly the same as now: Common sense, self-protection, and the law. Currently, people do all they can to avoid incidents, so if I do the things you mention, I will be safe to the extent that the driver sees me and can take evasive action. If what I do is detected too late to avoid a collision (such as crossing an active junction on a red light, or driving into the path of an oncoming car on a motorway) then it doesn't matter whether the driver is human or software if the event is detected too late for any response to be effective. Human or software, you're still reliant on brakes, traction, and structural stability. Those things don't miraculously improve when there's someone with faster reflexes at the wheel. That's not to say it won't be safer when detection and response time is shorter, but it won't be so much safer as to reward stupidity.
  - mannykannot 11y ago
    It is not exactly the same as now: there is much greater certainty about what the outcome will be. The physics is the same, but the human is out of the loop. There's been a subset of people who already behave this way for as long as I can recall, and it probably started soon after the invention of the automobile. Automation will greatly facilitate it.
    - darkmighty 11y ago
      You won't be able to guarantee there are no cars around you without human drivers. Also, you might get prosecuted for reckless behavior. I don't get this whole argument. We needn't be so worried about a few others taking small advantages when the overall state will be better for us.
      - mannykannot 11y ago
        > You won't be able to guarantee there are no cars around you without human drivers. Also, you might get prosecuted for reckless behavior. That is true now (and obviously more so in the first case), yet people still do it. If it wasn't being done, you could suggest that automation will not change the situation enough for people to start doing it, but as there already are people doing it, then that threshold has already been crossed, and it is implausible that it will not increase in frequency as the risk of doing it is decreased.
- CptanPanic 11y ago
  I figure it will happen like this. Just like red-light cameras catch people running red lights now, in the future all the cars are now moving cameras. You do something illegal like in this video, you have their license plate, and proof that they are doing something dangerous, so they should get a ticket.
  - gopowerranger 11y ago
    You still don't get it. It's the pedestrian doing the wrong, not the driver. He's saying pedestrians will take advantage of cars auto-braking for them.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - MaysonL 11y ago
      Pedestrians are subject to traffic laws. And perhaps some self-driving cars will be equipped with paintball dispensers.
      - jessaustin 11y ago
        Pedestrians are often equipped with more effective methods of retaliation than paintballs. This seems to imply a giant sense of entitlement on the part of automobile passengers. If you want to go fast get in an airplane. Urban areas are shared with others. If a car has to stop every ten yards to accommodate pedestrians, then that implies a certain maximum possible speed, which is fine. "Jaywalking" is as fake a legal concept as "intellectual property".
        azernik 11y ago
        "Jaywalking" is not a fake concept. Streets are public property, maintained by the government, so the rules for who gets to use them and how are very legitimately in the government's purview. If you're talking about the justification for governments making those rules in the first place, I could say the same about a rule saying pedestrians can cross in the middle of the street and cars have to yield - both are arbitrary rules, and should be judged based on their public policy outcomes.
- snowwrestler 11y ago
  Let's imagine a world in which every car has active collision avoidance systems. These do not even need to be self-driving cars; they just need to be able to reliably detect imminent collisions and override driver input to prevent them. In that world, could one safely run a red light? Sometimes yes, but there are limits even to the highest-performing sensors and servos. An intersection with large buildings on every corner would still be dangerous--radar and lasers can't see through walls or around corners, and even with perfect reaction times and brake control, a car doing 30mph has as a minimum stopping distance that would take it into the intersection. So, I don't know that people would think that they are invincible. And traffic signals would still be enforced by law.
  - irl_zebra 11y ago
    Maybe a non sequitur, but maybe a future step would be putting the radar at every intersection and linking it all up to the cloud and then to cars. It would be like Google Maps traffic except super granular. If every car had data about what cars were coming up the street and generally at what speed, perhaps not only could accidents around corners be prevented, but automated cars could just go anytime it's safe without regard to traffic signs.
    - marssaxman 11y ago
      What a surveillance-state dystopia that sounds like. Do not want!
- 69_years_and 11y ago
  I would guess the 99% will report you in and road law and the courts will do the rest. Perhaps the 99% will gang up on you ;-)
- spdionis 11y ago
  make law-breaking maneuvers auto-detected by cars (even on manual mode) and auto-detection systems mandatory on ALL cars and that's it..
- DanBC 11y ago
  You'll be doing it in front of the other 99% of traffic who all have constantly in use cameras, which could be sent to relevant law enforcement with a voice command.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- swsieber 11y ago
  Enough people getting made at stupid people and getting the feature of auto-reporting people to the police :)
- RealityVoid 11y ago
  Making the cars more aware and having better reflexes will not step the from ploughing straight through you if you're dumb enough to jump in front of them. They would try to avoid and mitigate, just as drivers these days try to do, but they still have to obey the laws of physics.
darklajid 11y ago
I think the argument is: While a sane/rational person will stop, you are still risking your health. You're doing something unexpected (Like the idiot in the YT video). The premise is that self driving cars will and can react defensively. While someone driving home after a long day in the office might not. So - yes, you can abuse human drivers, today. But the GP seems to think that it's far more risky now and will be ~trivial~ given good enough self driving cars.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by maratd 11y ago

xgbi 11y ago

No you don't understand: if 99% of the traffic is automated and resilient to idiots, what prevents me from passing a red light? What prevents me from going the wrong way on the motorway? You'll have overstressed idiots that will get that and start driving like fools to meet their appointments. It has already happened in some way: the overconfident TMAXes that don't think the laws of traffic apply to them.

lsaferite 11y ago
TMAXes?
- vmarsy 11y ago
  The parent is probably from Europe and refers to TMAX Scooters, http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tmax-672750-bike-motorcycle.html http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tmax-672750-bike-motorcyc... These are very powerful scooters, almost as fast as motorcycles but they don't require manual speed shifting, making. Usually drivers or those are reckless in cities like Paris
jeremysmyth 11y ago
what prevents me from passing a red light? What prevents me from going the wrong way on the motorway? Exactly the same as now: Common sense, self-protection, and the law. Currently, people do all they can to avoid incidents, so if I do the things you mention, I will be safe to the extent that the driver sees me and can take evasive action. If what I do is detected too late to avoid a collision (such as crossing an active junction on a red light, or driving into the path of an oncoming car on a motorway) then it doesn't matter whether the driver is human or software if the event is detected too late for any response to be effective. Human or software, you're still reliant on brakes, traction, and structural stability. Those things don't miraculously improve when there's someone with faster reflexes at the wheel. That's not to say it won't be safer when detection and response time is shorter, but it won't be so much safer as to reward stupidity.
- mannykannot 11y ago
  It is not exactly the same as now: there is much greater certainty about what the outcome will be. The physics is the same, but the human is out of the loop. There's been a subset of people who already behave this way for as long as I can recall, and it probably started soon after the invention of the automobile. Automation will greatly facilitate it.
  - darkmighty 11y ago
    You won't be able to guarantee there are no cars around you without human drivers. Also, you might get prosecuted for reckless behavior. I don't get this whole argument. We needn't be so worried about a few others taking small advantages when the overall state will be better for us.
    - mannykannot 11y ago
      > You won't be able to guarantee there are no cars around you without human drivers. Also, you might get prosecuted for reckless behavior. That is true now (and obviously more so in the first case), yet people still do it. If it wasn't being done, you could suggest that automation will not change the situation enough for people to start doing it, but as there already are people doing it, then that threshold has already been crossed, and it is implausible that it will not increase in frequency as the risk of doing it is decreased.
CptanPanic 11y ago
I figure it will happen like this. Just like red-light cameras catch people running red lights now, in the future all the cars are now moving cameras. You do something illegal like in this video, you have their license plate, and proof that they are doing something dangerous, so they should get a ticket.
- gopowerranger 11y ago
  You still don't get it. It's the pedestrian doing the wrong, not the driver. He's saying pedestrians will take advantage of cars auto-braking for them.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - MaysonL 11y ago
    Pedestrians are subject to traffic laws. And perhaps some self-driving cars will be equipped with paintball dispensers.
    - jessaustin 11y ago
      Pedestrians are often equipped with more effective methods of retaliation than paintballs. This seems to imply a giant sense of entitlement on the part of automobile passengers. If you want to go fast get in an airplane. Urban areas are shared with others. If a car has to stop every ten yards to accommodate pedestrians, then that implies a certain maximum possible speed, which is fine. "Jaywalking" is as fake a legal concept as "intellectual property".
      - azernik 11y ago
        "Jaywalking" is not a fake concept. Streets are public property, maintained by the government, so the rules for who gets to use them and how are very legitimately in the government's purview. If you're talking about the justification for governments making those rules in the first place, I could say the same about a rule saying pedestrians can cross in the middle of the street and cars have to yield - both are arbitrary rules, and should be judged based on their public policy outcomes.
snowwrestler 11y ago
Let's imagine a world in which every car has active collision avoidance systems. These do not even need to be self-driving cars; they just need to be able to reliably detect imminent collisions and override driver input to prevent them. In that world, could one safely run a red light? Sometimes yes, but there are limits even to the highest-performing sensors and servos. An intersection with large buildings on every corner would still be dangerous--radar and lasers can't see through walls or around corners, and even with perfect reaction times and brake control, a car doing 30mph has as a minimum stopping distance that would take it into the intersection. So, I don't know that people would think that they are invincible. And traffic signals would still be enforced by law.
- irl_zebra 11y ago
  Maybe a non sequitur, but maybe a future step would be putting the radar at every intersection and linking it all up to the cloud and then to cars. It would be like Google Maps traffic except super granular. If every car had data about what cars were coming up the street and generally at what speed, perhaps not only could accidents around corners be prevented, but automated cars could just go anytime it's safe without regard to traffic signs.
  - marssaxman 11y ago
    What a surveillance-state dystopia that sounds like. Do not want!
69_years_and 11y ago
I would guess the 99% will report you in and road law and the courts will do the rest. Perhaps the 99% will gang up on you ;-)
spdionis 11y ago
make law-breaking maneuvers auto-detected by cars (even on manual mode) and auto-detection systems mandatory on ALL cars and that's it..
DanBC 11y ago
You'll be doing it in front of the other 99% of traffic who all have constantly in use cameras, which could be sent to relevant law enforcement with a voice command.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
swsieber 11y ago
Enough people getting made at stupid people and getting the feature of auto-reporting people to the police :)
RealityVoid 11y ago
Making the cars more aware and having better reflexes will not step the from ploughing straight through you if you're dumb enough to jump in front of them. They would try to avoid and mitigate, just as drivers these days try to do, but they still have to obey the laws of physics.

darklajid 11y ago

I think the argument is: While a sane/rational person will stop, you are still risking your health. You're doing something unexpected (Like the idiot in the YT video). The premise is that self driving cars will and can react defensively. While someone driving home after a long day in the office might not. So - yes, you can abuse human drivers, today. But the GP seems to think that it's far more risky now and will be ~trivial~ given good enough self driving cars.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]