4 ms·

Ask HN: Client is bullying for refund since beginning

5 points by codegeek 11y ago

If you have a client who signedup for your SAAS service and after 5 months wants a full refund going back to his start date, is that reasonable ? Not to mention that terms and conditions clearly say no refund after 30 days. He is using scare tactics and threatening to take legal action because he apparently missed "Deadlines". Typical example of client from hell. What will you guys do or have done in situations like these ?

calcsam 11y ago
The main risk here he is that he issues a chargeback on the credit card he used. That would be a hassle. If you are not worried about them politely inform him you won't be doing what he wants, then block his emails unless he actually sues you.
- codegeek 11y ago
  so what do you suggest ? Is it worth the hassle for me ? The refund will be about $1000 though. He is clearly trying to bully here because he legally has no grounds. I am willing to fight the chargebacks but I doubt he will take any legal route because what is he going to prove ? All records says that he signed up agreeing to the terms and conditions.
steve_taylor 11y ago
Is this the same client that cares more about the people behind the product than the product itself?
- codegeek 11y ago
  haha no. this one is different. But really, for SAAS providers, how to handle clients like these ? On principal and even legality, this is wrong. He is just trying to bully here.
  - steve_taylor 11y ago
    You don't need customers like this. What is your SaaS product anyway, if you don't mind me asking?
pavornyoh 11y ago
My question is, why does he want a refund? What concerns does he have?
- codegeek 11y ago
  No concerns really. He signed up, did not do much work. It is a do it yourself platform. Now he claims that we did not provide the service we agreed to. Of course, this is a SAAS. When he signed up, he agreed to terms and conditions which clearly list that we are just a platform AND there is no refund after 30 days. he is claiming that his bootstrapped business failed some deadlines and deliverables because of us, lol really. That is just hilarious. He is claiming a lot of things honestly and it is just plain lie. The question here really is: Should I continue doing this back and forth fight with him or just pay him the entire refund ? I am offering him last month's refund as a token but even that is against the terms and conditions.
  - pavornyoh 11y ago
    > I am offering him last month's refund as a token but even that is against the terms and conditions. That is very generous of you. If he was not happy, he should have cancelled in 30 days. I wouldn't go back and forth with him nor would I give him a penny more if I were in your shoes. You are in to make a profit as well. Imagine if all your customers did this? Stand firm and don't give him a dime.
    - codegeek 11y ago
      Thx. I wrote back to him finally saying "No". But still offered him the last month refund as a token to make him feel good about him and his sorry ass. Also told him that if he doesn't take this offer, then he is free to do whatever he needs to do. I refuse to be bullied by these idiots.
      - pavornyoh 11y ago
        >But still offered him the last month refund as a token to make him feel good about him and his sorry ass. Good guy you are. Stand firm and call his bluff. 5 months is a long time to not realize something isn't working for a business.
insoluble 11y ago
It's prudent to recognise that some clients are too inexperienced to understand what makes one business profitable and another a failure. A lot of the time, these clients will believe that the failure is all because of this or that -- some small factor -- when in reality their unique selling proposition is flawed or even nonexistent. They nit pick the small "problems" rather than notice the big ones.
saluki 11y ago
I would go ahead and refund 2 months of his subscription, I would only do this through stripe (or your payment gateway) so they can see the refunds if he initiates a chargeback for charges. Send him a polite email that you have refunded two months which goes beyond the terms of service of 30 day refunds and thank him for trying out your app. If you can see what type of card he used you could call their customer service and try to find out how long they have to make a chargeback and then refund back to that date if it's 120 days, refunding three payments might cover it or 90 days two payments might cover it depending on how long this discussion has been going on. On the other hand if $1000 won't make or break your cash flow just refund the whole amount so he'll go on his merry way and maybe you can avoid a negative evangelist for your app. Plus chargebacks are going to cost you fees and time/hassle. Sometimes you just run in to problem clients as a consultant and SaaS owner. Good luck closing things out with him.
davismwfl 11y ago
You already got great advice and took the right action IMO. Just a point from having dealt with a number of clients like this and a few that also deserved refunds. The ones that you know deserve a refund are easy to give it to because you feel it in your bones that it is the right decision, don't question yourself on those. The ones like this person are not being reasonable, but throwing them a small bone is a minor factor. From my own perspective when a client is obviously being a jerk and threatening legal action, I generally say something to the affect, "I am sorry that there is nothing we can do for you at this point given your position". Sometimes I will point out to them that based on the T&C's they agreed to that their legal fees will be significant considering that when I prove they are in the wrong based on the agreed to T&C's, they will also owe all my attorney fees and costs. Bully's consistently back down to one thing, an informed person that is willing to meet them head on. Usually the calmer you are, and the more reasonable but extremely firm in your position the better. I was in my personal attorney's office one day when he got a call from a large enterprise that he had already sued and one a settlement against for his home siding that apparently was defective. They were trying to get him to also sign away more rights and agree not to represent anyone else or share any information about his case, and they wanted a joint stipulation to seal the case. I loved his response to their attorney on the phone, he said, well, I could do that, or I could form a class action suit against you for even suggesting that other people don't have the same right I did to a refund and damages. One bully vs someone unafraid, the company backed down and cut him a check and he made the case public but didn't go after the company anymore. Just always sat with me, he never yelled, never got offended, just made is position extremely clear and unwavering.
- codegeek 11y ago
  thx for your response. I am a bit overwhelmed with all this but this guy is a real jerk. Yes, I may even have given him a full refund (unreasonable of course) if he had just asked nicely. May be. But he is using scare tactics. Why are people so evil in this world.
  - davismwfl 11y ago
    Totally understand feeling overwhelmed, good people usually feel that way when someone tries to take advantage of them. Try to hold out and not give a full refund, I say this for two reasons. First is the principle, Second is for the potential legal situation it puts you in. Yes, you have the right to make almost whatever decision you want, however, if you refund his entire amount then the next jerk that comes along may use it as a point that you violated your own T&C's, so he deserves his full refund too. I am not an attorney so you could ask one for specific advice, but I have been told that exact thing more than once by my own attorney. He constantly tells me to make sure I hold people to the T&C's and that I shouldn't "violate" them either without extenuating circumstances which can be documented to prove a unique circumstance that warranted me doing so. Good luck no matter what.

5 points by codegeek 11y ago

calcsam 11y ago

The main risk here he is that he issues a chargeback on the credit card he used. That would be a hassle. If you are not worried about them politely inform him you won't be doing what he wants, then block his emails unless he actually sues you.

codegeek 11y ago
so what do you suggest ? Is it worth the hassle for me ? The refund will be about $1000 though. He is clearly trying to bully here because he legally has no grounds. I am willing to fight the chargebacks but I doubt he will take any legal route because what is he going to prove ? All records says that he signed up agreeing to the terms and conditions.

steve_taylor 11y ago

Is this the same client that cares more about the people behind the product than the product itself?

codegeek 11y ago
haha no. this one is different. But really, for SAAS providers, how to handle clients like these ? On principal and even legality, this is wrong. He is just trying to bully here.
- steve_taylor 11y ago
  You don't need customers like this. What is your SaaS product anyway, if you don't mind me asking?

pavornyoh 11y ago

My question is, why does he want a refund? What concerns does he have?

codegeek 11y ago
No concerns really. He signed up, did not do much work. It is a do it yourself platform. Now he claims that we did not provide the service we agreed to. Of course, this is a SAAS. When he signed up, he agreed to terms and conditions which clearly list that we are just a platform AND there is no refund after 30 days. he is claiming that his bootstrapped business failed some deadlines and deliverables because of us, lol really. That is just hilarious. He is claiming a lot of things honestly and it is just plain lie. The question here really is: Should I continue doing this back and forth fight with him or just pay him the entire refund ? I am offering him last month's refund as a token but even that is against the terms and conditions.
- pavornyoh 11y ago
  > I am offering him last month's refund as a token but even that is against the terms and conditions. That is very generous of you. If he was not happy, he should have cancelled in 30 days. I wouldn't go back and forth with him nor would I give him a penny more if I were in your shoes. You are in to make a profit as well. Imagine if all your customers did this? Stand firm and don't give him a dime.
  - codegeek 11y ago
    Thx. I wrote back to him finally saying "No". But still offered him the last month refund as a token to make him feel good about him and his sorry ass. Also told him that if he doesn't take this offer, then he is free to do whatever he needs to do. I refuse to be bullied by these idiots.
    - pavornyoh 11y ago
      >But still offered him the last month refund as a token to make him feel good about him and his sorry ass. Good guy you are. Stand firm and call his bluff. 5 months is a long time to not realize something isn't working for a business.

insoluble 11y ago

It's prudent to recognise that some clients are too inexperienced to understand what makes one business profitable and another a failure. A lot of the time, these clients will believe that the failure is all because of this or that -- some small factor -- when in reality their unique selling proposition is flawed or even nonexistent. They nit pick the small "problems" rather than notice the big ones.

saluki 11y ago

I would go ahead and refund 2 months of his subscription, I would only do this through stripe (or your payment gateway) so they can see the refunds if he initiates a chargeback for charges. Send him a polite email that you have refunded two months which goes beyond the terms of service of 30 day refunds and thank him for trying out your app. If you can see what type of card he used you could call their customer service and try to find out how long they have to make a chargeback and then refund back to that date if it's 120 days, refunding three payments might cover it or 90 days two payments might cover it depending on how long this discussion has been going on. On the other hand if $1000 won't make or break your cash flow just refund the whole amount so he'll go on his merry way and maybe you can avoid a negative evangelist for your app. Plus chargebacks are going to cost you fees and time/hassle. Sometimes you just run in to problem clients as a consultant and SaaS owner. Good luck closing things out with him.

davismwfl 11y ago

You already got great advice and took the right action IMO. Just a point from having dealt with a number of clients like this and a few that also deserved refunds. The ones that you know deserve a refund are easy to give it to because you feel it in your bones that it is the right decision, don't question yourself on those. The ones like this person are not being reasonable, but throwing them a small bone is a minor factor. From my own perspective when a client is obviously being a jerk and threatening legal action, I generally say something to the affect, "I am sorry that there is nothing we can do for you at this point given your position". Sometimes I will point out to them that based on the T&C's they agreed to that their legal fees will be significant considering that when I prove they are in the wrong based on the agreed to T&C's, they will also owe all my attorney fees and costs. Bully's consistently back down to one thing, an informed person that is willing to meet them head on. Usually the calmer you are, and the more reasonable but extremely firm in your position the better. I was in my personal attorney's office one day when he got a call from a large enterprise that he had already sued and one a settlement against for his home siding that apparently was defective. They were trying to get him to also sign away more rights and agree not to represent anyone else or share any information about his case, and they wanted a joint stipulation to seal the case. I loved his response to their attorney on the phone, he said, well, I could do that, or I could form a class action suit against you for even suggesting that other people don't have the same right I did to a refund and damages. One bully vs someone unafraid, the company backed down and cut him a check and he made the case public but didn't go after the company anymore. Just always sat with me, he never yelled, never got offended, just made is position extremely clear and unwavering.

codegeek 11y ago
thx for your response. I am a bit overwhelmed with all this but this guy is a real jerk. Yes, I may even have given him a full refund (unreasonable of course) if he had just asked nicely. May be. But he is using scare tactics. Why are people so evil in this world.
- davismwfl 11y ago
  Totally understand feeling overwhelmed, good people usually feel that way when someone tries to take advantage of them. Try to hold out and not give a full refund, I say this for two reasons. First is the principle, Second is for the potential legal situation it puts you in. Yes, you have the right to make almost whatever decision you want, however, if you refund his entire amount then the next jerk that comes along may use it as a point that you violated your own T&C's, so he deserves his full refund too. I am not an attorney so you could ask one for specific advice, but I have been told that exact thing more than once by my own attorney. He constantly tells me to make sure I hold people to the T&C's and that I shouldn't "violate" them either without extenuating circumstances which can be documented to prove a unique circumstance that warranted me doing so. Good luck no matter what.