7 ms·

Starting a few months ago, I'm getting a few robocalls a week from "your local google specialist" and such scams. My number is listed in donotcall.gov. It makes

by tlb 11y ago

Starting a few months ago, I'm getting a few robocalls a week from "your local google specialist" and such scams. My number is listed in donotcall.gov. It makes me want to not answer unrecognized numbers on my phone. It's now the case that a database of every phone number (10 billion entries, highly compressible) could be mirrored to every phone, with a reputation score for each number. Or looked up in real time. The phone company won't do it -- it'll have to be independent, like an ad blocker. I'd buy a subscription to that database.

ivank 11y ago
"Block robocalls, telemarketers and other spammers automatically with our Community Blacklist feature." https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.flexaspect.android.everycallcontrol&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.flexaspect...
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
djcapelis 11y ago
Yeah, they do this to any number that is listed on a business document ever. I ported my number to run through google voice, which catches only a few of them, and pretty much have stopped picking up most calls from unlisted numbers. It's sad. The major problem with some of these issues is that if I understand it right, the phone system often isn't always aware of the source of the calls because they get routed through foreign gateways and voip and the number you see in the caller ID is spoofed and has no connection to anything. The FCC is aware this is happening and these fall within its jurisdiction, but they're having trouble enforcing the rules. The fact that congress is revoking the FCC's ability to enforce these rules for student loans is just bog standard corruption.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  It's worth considering picking up and asking them to put you on their courtesy do not call list (not argumentatively, just ask). Even scammers don't want to waste resources on people that aren't going to convert and this is a pretty strong signal. It usually works even when you have to talk over an aggressive operator to say it.
  - djcapelis 11y ago
    Yeah that doesn't work at all, they just hang up and move on, they don't stop. No one doing these things is being paid to maintain the list or prune numbers. And for whatever it's worth, the FCC also recommends that if possible you don't pick up at all.
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      It's worked for me...
      - djcapelis 11y ago
        For a robo caller autodialing numbers listed on the do not call list against all FCC guidelines? It'll totally work with regular telemarketers, but that isn't what we're talking about here. Basically there's two things going on: Robo calling, which is restricted under FCC regulations. And calling numbers on the do not call list, which is also restricted under FCC regulations. Someone who does both... usually isn't going to stop if you ask them to. I'm curious if you've experienced otherwise, very few people report having any success with that. Most call centers who violate federal two different federal regulations while dialing your number don't particularly spend time maintaining their calling lists.
        maxerickson 11y ago
        Yes. Obvious scammer calls, skip answering a few times, same scammer keeps calling, answer & ask, poof, no more calls. Of course it doesn't end such calls altogether, but 2 a week is a damn sight better than several a day. Do you have direct knowledge that they would not bother managing their call lists, or do we have dueling suppositions?
        djcapelis 11y ago
        I don't have direct knowledges of practices of companies who refuse to disclose who they are. What I'm saying comes from the fact that it just hasn't worked for the calls to my line. I switched numbers to make them stop. There's an Internet full of reports of other people saying the strategy you advocate doesn't work for them either, and the government agency that regulates the phone lines explicitly recommends against it. But we could call that dueling supicions if you'd like. And just to clarify, you're talking about a US number that's been listed on the national Do Not Call list, right? And not just regular scam calls, but calls placed by an automatic dialer and answered by an automated system that falls to a human caller only after being answered, right?
- mring33621 11y ago
  I get robo calls that are supposedly from my own number. Caller ID is clearly not deception-proof.
  - djcapelis 11y ago
    It's never been. Caller ID reads whatever the person placing the call wants it to be.
  - finnn 11y ago
    Can confirm, most VoIP termination providers allow you to set your caller ID to an arbitrary string. My cellphone doesn't seem to like it when you put in letters in it (doesn't display the CID at all), but other than that pretty much anything goes.
  - vinbreau 11y ago
    I'm glad I'm not the only one. My father's name is the same as mine so at first I thought he was calling me, nope, robocall.
Turing_Machine 11y ago
I never answer unrecognized numbers. I can't even remember the last time an unrecognized call was someone I actually wanted to talk to.
- rogerbinns 11y ago
  Same here. I also use Google Voice, so they can leave a message which is (often humourously) transcribed and sent as email and sms. The legit calls (eg dry cleaning is ready) get through. The spammers never leave a message.
eli 11y ago
A database doesn't help you when the called ID is spoofed to a random number that has no connection to the person calling. I've noticed the robocalls I get seem to have the same area code and prefix as my number and the last four digits appear to be random.
- cordite 11y ago
  I've gotten the same robocall for house security systems from totally random area codes every time. I wonder if services like trello are being used/abused for these. (And is unsolicited robo calls against their TOS?)
  - uxp 11y ago
    > trello You're looking for Twilio.
    - cordite 11y ago
      You are correct.
  - rtkwe 11y ago
    I've gotten those before and iirc there's a press # to not call again and it's worked so far. Same with the solar tax credit calls but those came back every few months from a new number until recently.
- vitd 11y ago
  While that's true, I've never seen a system that will randomize the spoofed number on every call. We regularly see the same number show up on our caller-ID for weeks on end. In fact, in one case the "I'm calling from Windows" people had their caller ID changed to "DO NOT PICK UP" for a few days, I'm guess by a disgruntled employee. So I think a database would help if it could be updated in near-real time. If 100 people across the country get a call from the same bogus number, it could get added immediately and stop thousands more calls from going out that night, at least.
gruez 11y ago
but you can't rely on the phone number reported by caller id - they're very spoofable.
lost_my_pwd 11y ago
There are quite a few Android apps out that crowdsource call blocklists. I have been using Truecaller[0] with good results thus far. [0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.truecaller https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.truecaller
arbitrage 11y ago
> It makes me want to not answer unrecognized numbers on my phone. So don't? It's your phone, after all. Just let it go to VM.
cmiles74 11y ago
I don't answer un-recognized calls, especially toll-free originators. I think it's entirely reasonable and they are always free to leave a voicemail.
wcummings 11y ago
>It makes me want to not answer unrecognized numbers on my phone. Why would you ever answer unrecognized numbers?
patio11 11y ago
Try nomorobo. They get you to set up simultaneous-ring with one of their numbers. For each incoming call, if it fails their reputation scoring, their system simply "picks up" immediately and plays a pre-recorded message. Your main number then doesn't receive the call (timing issues notwithstanding). They have an interesting way of building the reputation database: in addition to receiving customer reports, they buy Twilio's "dirtiest" phone numbers, the ones getting so spammed they're unusable by other businesses. If you call ~3 dirty numbers, welcome to the dynamic block list.
- tptacek 11y ago
  How am I just learning about this now? This is amazing. You've been to my house several times; how did you never tell me "uh you know you don't need to be getting those robocalls you get all day"?
- kevin_thibedeau 11y ago
  Doesn't work with the callers who spoof your own phone number.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    Here in the UK, calling your own number seems to be used exclusively for configuration stuff (voicemail etc.). Is there any normal use for it in the states? If not, surely you should just blacklist your own number? (I'm aware that any time you say "you should just ..." it's never that simple)
- j-conn 11y ago
  Very cool. Can they somehow detect / prevent malicious actors impersonating legitimate phone numbers to get them blacklisted?
  - patio11 11y ago
    You get an audio capcha ("This phone is protected by NoMoRobo. Press $NUMBER to prove you aren't a robot. Press $NUMBER to prove you aren't a robot. ... Goodbye.") $NUMBER is two randomly generated digits. Presumably one can feedback loop that into the reputation score. Honestly, though, I don't think this is a terribly likely attack.
Kluny 11y ago
I have a contact in my phone labelled "Spam" that lists 30 numbers and counting. Calls from those numbers go straight to voicemail and their texts are blocked. I'll gladly donate them to the database.
TodPunk 11y ago
I do two things for this. One, I have a separate phone line that I largely ignore, and I give this as my main contact line for people or businesses that I have no dire need to talk to. Best Buy, for instance. If it's important, they'll leave a voicemail. This started as a land line, that was expensive but I needed DSL anyway (this was 10 years ago). It moved to a cell phone with basic service. Fees sucked, so I started (shameless plug) Phone Janitor[1] to give me better filtering. This allows me to check voicemail anywhere, unlike my cell line (unless I sign up for their service) and just transferred it to my own company. Turns out this helps a lot of other folks with similar privacy desires. Control is a wonderful thing. Ultimately it's really, really crappy, but the Telecoms and the FCC don't want to be too heavy handed in this, and advertisers are finding new ways of skirting the donotcall rules. They ruined SMS in this regard[2] as well, deliberately. [1] - https://phonejanitor.com/ https://phonejanitor.com/ [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_spoofing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_spoofing
bjt123 11y ago
OR give up on phone numbers altogether and just use WhatsApp. The mobile carriers lose.
mey 11y ago
I've started taking glee filling out the FCC form https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us

by tlb 11y ago

ivank 11y ago

"Block robocalls, telemarketers and other spammers automatically with our Community Blacklist feature." https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.flexaspect.android.everycallcontrol&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.flexaspect...

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

djcapelis 11y ago

Yeah, they do this to any number that is listed on a business document ever. I ported my number to run through google voice, which catches only a few of them, and pretty much have stopped picking up most calls from unlisted numbers. It's sad. The major problem with some of these issues is that if I understand it right, the phone system often isn't always aware of the source of the calls because they get routed through foreign gateways and voip and the number you see in the caller ID is spoofed and has no connection to anything. The FCC is aware this is happening and these fall within its jurisdiction, but they're having trouble enforcing the rules. The fact that congress is revoking the FCC's ability to enforce these rules for student loans is just bog standard corruption.

maxerickson 11y ago
It's worth considering picking up and asking them to put you on their courtesy do not call list (not argumentatively, just ask). Even scammers don't want to waste resources on people that aren't going to convert and this is a pretty strong signal. It usually works even when you have to talk over an aggressive operator to say it.
- djcapelis 11y ago
  Yeah that doesn't work at all, they just hang up and move on, they don't stop. No one doing these things is being paid to maintain the list or prune numbers. And for whatever it's worth, the FCC also recommends that if possible you don't pick up at all.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    It's worked for me...
    - djcapelis 11y ago
      For a robo caller autodialing numbers listed on the do not call list against all FCC guidelines? It'll totally work with regular telemarketers, but that isn't what we're talking about here. Basically there's two things going on: Robo calling, which is restricted under FCC regulations. And calling numbers on the do not call list, which is also restricted under FCC regulations. Someone who does both... usually isn't going to stop if you ask them to. I'm curious if you've experienced otherwise, very few people report having any success with that. Most call centers who violate federal two different federal regulations while dialing your number don't particularly spend time maintaining their calling lists.
      - maxerickson 11y ago
        Yes. Obvious scammer calls, skip answering a few times, same scammer keeps calling, answer & ask, poof, no more calls. Of course it doesn't end such calls altogether, but 2 a week is a damn sight better than several a day. Do you have direct knowledge that they would not bother managing their call lists, or do we have dueling suppositions?
        djcapelis 11y ago
        I don't have direct knowledges of practices of companies who refuse to disclose who they are. What I'm saying comes from the fact that it just hasn't worked for the calls to my line. I switched numbers to make them stop. There's an Internet full of reports of other people saying the strategy you advocate doesn't work for them either, and the government agency that regulates the phone lines explicitly recommends against it. But we could call that dueling supicions if you'd like. And just to clarify, you're talking about a US number that's been listed on the national Do Not Call list, right? And not just regular scam calls, but calls placed by an automatic dialer and answered by an automated system that falls to a human caller only after being answered, right?
mring33621 11y ago
I get robo calls that are supposedly from my own number. Caller ID is clearly not deception-proof.
- djcapelis 11y ago
  It's never been. Caller ID reads whatever the person placing the call wants it to be.
- finnn 11y ago
  Can confirm, most VoIP termination providers allow you to set your caller ID to an arbitrary string. My cellphone doesn't seem to like it when you put in letters in it (doesn't display the CID at all), but other than that pretty much anything goes.
- vinbreau 11y ago
  I'm glad I'm not the only one. My father's name is the same as mine so at first I thought he was calling me, nope, robocall.

Turing_Machine 11y ago

I never answer unrecognized numbers. I can't even remember the last time an unrecognized call was someone I actually wanted to talk to.

rogerbinns 11y ago
Same here. I also use Google Voice, so they can leave a message which is (often humourously) transcribed and sent as email and sms. The legit calls (eg dry cleaning is ready) get through. The spammers never leave a message.

eli 11y ago

A database doesn't help you when the called ID is spoofed to a random number that has no connection to the person calling. I've noticed the robocalls I get seem to have the same area code and prefix as my number and the last four digits appear to be random.

cordite 11y ago
I've gotten the same robocall for house security systems from totally random area codes every time. I wonder if services like trello are being used/abused for these. (And is unsolicited robo calls against their TOS?)
- uxp 11y ago
  > trello You're looking for Twilio.
  - cordite 11y ago
    You are correct.
- rtkwe 11y ago
  I've gotten those before and iirc there's a press # to not call again and it's worked so far. Same with the solar tax credit calls but those came back every few months from a new number until recently.
vitd 11y ago
While that's true, I've never seen a system that will randomize the spoofed number on every call. We regularly see the same number show up on our caller-ID for weeks on end. In fact, in one case the "I'm calling from Windows" people had their caller ID changed to "DO NOT PICK UP" for a few days, I'm guess by a disgruntled employee. So I think a database would help if it could be updated in near-real time. If 100 people across the country get a call from the same bogus number, it could get added immediately and stop thousands more calls from going out that night, at least.

gruez 11y ago

but you can't rely on the phone number reported by caller id - they're very spoofable.

lost_my_pwd 11y ago

There are quite a few Android apps out that crowdsource call blocklists. I have been using Truecaller[0] with good results thus far. [0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.truecaller https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.truecaller

arbitrage 11y ago

> It makes me want to not answer unrecognized numbers on my phone. So don't? It's your phone, after all. Just let it go to VM.

cmiles74 11y ago

I don't answer un-recognized calls, especially toll-free originators. I think it's entirely reasonable and they are always free to leave a voicemail.

wcummings 11y ago

>It makes me want to not answer unrecognized numbers on my phone. Why would you ever answer unrecognized numbers?

patio11 11y ago

Try nomorobo. They get you to set up simultaneous-ring with one of their numbers. For each incoming call, if it fails their reputation scoring, their system simply "picks up" immediately and plays a pre-recorded message. Your main number then doesn't receive the call (timing issues notwithstanding). They have an interesting way of building the reputation database: in addition to receiving customer reports, they buy Twilio's "dirtiest" phone numbers, the ones getting so spammed they're unusable by other businesses. If you call ~3 dirty numbers, welcome to the dynamic block list.

tptacek 11y ago
How am I just learning about this now? This is amazing. You've been to my house several times; how did you never tell me "uh you know you don't need to be getting those robocalls you get all day"?
kevin_thibedeau 11y ago
Doesn't work with the callers who spoof your own phone number.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Here in the UK, calling your own number seems to be used exclusively for configuration stuff (voicemail etc.). Is there any normal use for it in the states? If not, surely you should just blacklist your own number? (I'm aware that any time you say "you should just ..." it's never that simple)
j-conn 11y ago
Very cool. Can they somehow detect / prevent malicious actors impersonating legitimate phone numbers to get them blacklisted?
- patio11 11y ago
  You get an audio capcha ("This phone is protected by NoMoRobo. Press $NUMBER to prove you aren't a robot. Press $NUMBER to prove you aren't a robot. ... Goodbye.") $NUMBER is two randomly generated digits. Presumably one can feedback loop that into the reputation score. Honestly, though, I don't think this is a terribly likely attack.

Kluny 11y ago

I have a contact in my phone labelled "Spam" that lists 30 numbers and counting. Calls from those numbers go straight to voicemail and their texts are blocked. I'll gladly donate them to the database.

TodPunk 11y ago

I do two things for this. One, I have a separate phone line that I largely ignore, and I give this as my main contact line for people or businesses that I have no dire need to talk to. Best Buy, for instance. If it's important, they'll leave a voicemail. This started as a land line, that was expensive but I needed DSL anyway (this was 10 years ago). It moved to a cell phone with basic service. Fees sucked, so I started (shameless plug) Phone Janitor[1] to give me better filtering. This allows me to check voicemail anywhere, unlike my cell line (unless I sign up for their service) and just transferred it to my own company. Turns out this helps a lot of other folks with similar privacy desires. Control is a wonderful thing. Ultimately it's really, really crappy, but the Telecoms and the FCC don't want to be too heavy handed in this, and advertisers are finding new ways of skirting the donotcall rules. They ruined SMS in this regard[2] as well, deliberately. [1] - https://phonejanitor.com/ https://phonejanitor.com/ [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_spoofing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_spoofing

bjt123 11y ago

OR give up on phone numbers altogether and just use WhatsApp. The mobile carriers lose.

mey 11y ago

I've started taking glee filling out the FCC form https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us