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>Some tried giving Arab countries democracy and it turned out they never really wanted it and most of the dictators were much better alternative (still bad, jus

by tormeh 11y ago

>Some tried giving Arab countries democracy and it turned out they never really wanted it and most of the dictators were much better alternative (still bad, just better - to clarify). A mistake was made. It was not understood that people in war-torn countries want peace and stability above all else, and are willing to hand in their liberties for it. It was also not understood that among people who don't trust news or words of any kind (justified in this case) it is rational to support the candidate that's closest to yourself genetically. The link between democracy and wealth, stability and trust flow both ways, and it's easier to start with wealth, stability and trust than with democracy.

lallysingh 11y ago
It was understood <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_need..., nobody cared. I have my own beliefs on the matter, but I'll save us the argument.
emergentcypher 11y ago
Also, there is a lot more at play in the middle east than simply whether the people want democracy or stability. There is plenty of foreign interference going on from USA, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc... it's hard enough to overthrow a dictatorship and set up a free and democratic replacement. It's even harder when several foreign powers are fighting to prevent this from happening.
- curun1r 11y ago
  For more background on what emergentcypher is talking about, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq-Syria_pipeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq-Syria_pipeline As I understand it (probably needs some correction): This is a cold war being fought over who will supply Europe with natural gas. Russia, the current supplier, makes a ton of money off the current arrangement and it gives Russia influence over Europe. Europe has largely stayed out of the fracas publicly, to avoid antagonizing Russia, but supports the US's efforts to get the pipeline built to have an alternate source for the energy they need. I'm unclear as the role of the US in all this, but we're tightly allied with Western Europe, so I imagine we're representing Europe's interests by proxy. But what is clear is that it's no coincidence that the countries where all this craziness is happening are the countries along the planned route for the pipeline. Seen through this lens, everything starts to make sense, including Russia's endeavors to support Assad, an opponent of the pipeline. Expecting stability in a region where one superpower wants a pipeline built and another doesn't isn't reasonable, no matter how ready the population is for democracy. Add in that the region has a ton of people who believe in a medieval religion that advocates violence against non-adherents, and what little hope there was vanishes.

by tormeh 11y ago

lallysingh 11y ago

It was understood <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_need..., nobody cared. I have my own beliefs on the matter, but I'll save us the argument.

emergentcypher 11y ago

Also, there is a lot more at play in the middle east than simply whether the people want democracy or stability. There is plenty of foreign interference going on from USA, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc... it's hard enough to overthrow a dictatorship and set up a free and democratic replacement. It's even harder when several foreign powers are fighting to prevent this from happening.

curun1r 11y ago
For more background on what emergentcypher is talking about, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq-Syria_pipeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq-Syria_pipeline As I understand it (probably needs some correction): This is a cold war being fought over who will supply Europe with natural gas. Russia, the current supplier, makes a ton of money off the current arrangement and it gives Russia influence over Europe. Europe has largely stayed out of the fracas publicly, to avoid antagonizing Russia, but supports the US's efforts to get the pipeline built to have an alternate source for the energy they need. I'm unclear as the role of the US in all this, but we're tightly allied with Western Europe, so I imagine we're representing Europe's interests by proxy. But what is clear is that it's no coincidence that the countries where all this craziness is happening are the countries along the planned route for the pipeline. Seen through this lens, everything starts to make sense, including Russia's endeavors to support Assad, an opponent of the pipeline. Expecting stability in a region where one superpower wants a pipeline built and another doesn't isn't reasonable, no matter how ready the population is for democracy. Add in that the region has a ton of people who believe in a medieval religion that advocates violence against non-adherents, and what little hope there was vanishes.