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I'm one of the founders of Homejoy. I'm still very passionate about the home service space. After leaving Homejoy, I started FlyMaids, where we're exploring a

I'm one of the founders of Homejoy. I'm still very passionate about the home service space. After leaving Homejoy, I started FlyMaids, where we're exploring a few different angles on the space. We recently acquired the customer and service provider data from Homejoy. We're a small team that has been focused on moving quickly while bootstraping. We tried to quickly test different approaches, but we realize now that we did so in an unclear manner. We recognize the need to use the data we acquired responsibily. As a result, we're taking the site down, and we're going to do a better job with our testing moving forward.

seancoleman 11y ago
Typically investment contracts employ non-competes to prevent founders from starting new businesses in similar spaces. Clearly this person's previous actions aren't the most ethical but I'm curious what his strategy is around this.
- mentat 11y ago
  Aren't all non-competes illegal in California?
  - slantedview 11y ago
    If you're willing to go to battle in court, they are.
  - bravo22 11y ago
    For employment they are unenforceable but this is a different situation. It would be part of an investment contract and it is very much enforceable.
dsr_ 11y ago
I'm upvoting you to get your response attention. Don't mistake that for approval of what you did.
- pavornyoh 11y ago
  >Don't mistake that for approval of what you did. If Aaron can answer though, I am curious if he was planning to get back into YC with flymaids?
jrochkind1 11y ago
You're passionate about a "space"?
- rconti 11y ago
  And keeping it clean!
- wpietri 11y ago
  It's jargon, but people definitely are like that. There are a horde of people who just want to do Bitcoin or VR or video games, for example. They're less concerned with the specific company than something about the tech, the users, or the market.
  - jrochkind1 11y ago
    Oh, I understand being passionate about video games, or VR, or Bitcoin, or even, maybe, although it's a stretch, helping people keep their houses clean. And wanting to work in that area. When you say you're passionate about a "space" though, I think you reveal that all you're really saying is you think you can make a lot of money in that "space". Which isn't passion at all. Well, maybe passionate about making money. Which is more like at best ambition or at worst greed, not actually passion.
    - volaski 11y ago
      While I think this is a stupid move on the founder's end and there's no debate about that, I disagree with your understanding of what "passion" is. People seem to think most passionate people are born with some sort of pre-assigned passion, but it's something that arises out of your experience and action. Just like Thomas Edison was "passionate" about what he built (but he was super greedy and an asshole too), this guy probably became obsessed with this "space" after having worked on it for such a long time, even though 5 years ago he probably didn't care about home cleaning at all.
      - jrochkind1 11y ago
nedwin 11y ago
Are any of the other cofounders or team joining you in FlyMaids?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
JoblessWonder 11y ago
Is your business actually registered anywhere? If so, under what name? Thanks!
Balgair 11y ago
Welp, might as well ask if no-one else is: What do you mean by 'exploring a few different angles on the space'? How is you new service going to be better than Home Joy or different? Essentially, considering what happened to Home Joy, why is it going to be different this time around? Great job on Home Joy the first time 'round, btw.
- jarek 11y ago
  Lowering costs by ripping competitors' HTML, CSS, and copy
- fleitz 11y ago
  Same great technology, less debt / more equity.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - rokhayakebe 11y ago
    AND a list of 100 mistakes I won't make.
iamcurious 11y ago
I'm starting to read "passionate about" as "wanting to make money of". I have to make an effort to read it in the classical sense. I fear the same will happen with "share". And when my kids talk about sharing at school I will only think of flooding with memes or of selling things. Now, I'm not a native english speaker, so I can't say if aarontcheung is misusing the term or not. Is this change happening to the english culture as a whole? Or am I reading way too many silicon valley articles?
- johncolanduoni 11y ago
  It is most definitely the latter, although SV isn't the only place this happens.
  - huac 11y ago
    Deutsche Bank's slogan is "Passion to Perform"
- Retra 11y ago
  I hear a lot of people using "passionate about" to mean "committed to" because it prevents others from trying to convince you that you're making a mistake.
- throwaway2048 11y ago
  nah there is certainly a cheapening of the language when such bullshit is thrown around so freely.
  - user_0001 11y ago
    just another bullshit marketing term. I cannot believe these type of people really think that those reading it will go "wow this guy really cares about some low paid worker cleaning my house well, I will go with them". Just seems so contrived and fake to me :-\
- christop 11y ago
  You're certainly not the only one to think that the term is somewhat misused: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz2-49q6DOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz2-49q6DOI
bigtones 11y ago
And when I say "testing different approaches" I mean: * completely ripping off competitor business websites * throwing PCI compliance and SSL encryption out the window * generally treating our VC money purchased customers from our old firm like commodity dirt. This one is gonna be a winner for sure.
- SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
  >throwing PCI compliance and SSL encryption out the window If they were using Stripe or similar, then they don't have access to your credit cards. Only the last four digits and expiration.
  - danhak 11y ago
    How bout the part where they're sending expiration date and last 4 digits over http?
    - __P 11y ago
      That isn't secure information... Emails often contain that info, which is kind of worse than HTTP.
      - slantedview 11y ago
        But it is secure information. If I recall, last 4 digits were part of how the CIA chief's e-mail was hacked recently.
        SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
        No, it's not secure information. Any time you use last-4 as something secure, you're doing it wrong. As mentioned above, last-4 is sent by email frequently, and email passes, unencrypted, through intermediate servers all over the Internet. Any compromised host can observe all of the email that passes through it. Any process that uses last-4 to unlock a password or otherwise as a secure token is broken by design.
birken 11y ago
In my experience, life is easier when you admit your mistakes without business speak, and just take the blame (for example: "I" instead of "We"). I've written a lot of mea culpas for mistakes which impacted customers, and the more direct and transparent I was, the better responses I always got. You made a mistake, you know you made a mistake. Admit it, apologize, and move on. Your excuses or context probably aren't going to help your cause.
- roymurdock 11y ago
  When that mistake might be very costly litigation-wise, and anything you say/do might be brought up in court, it's time to break out the business speak and obfuscate like there is no tomorrow.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    Maybe. That sort of nonsense may decrease the odds of losing a lawsuit. But you increase your odds of having a lawsuit, because you leave more people mad at you. That might be a good choice for a large company, as they already have lawyers on staff, can afford to pay for a lawsuit, and have enough money to advertise away the reputational stain. I'm not sure it's a good idea for a startup, though. Unless you are well funded, just dealing with a lawsuit could be fatal given the reputational cost, the legal bills, and the amount of founder time that will get soaked up. Personally, I'd try to be human and humane about it.
    - roymurdock 11y ago
      Agreed, I think it would be better to be frank and honest in this situation. Just trying to provide some kind of rationale for why he responded in such a business-like manner.
  - wangarific 11y ago
    It's time to lawyer up and not talk at all.
shashashasha 11y ago
What are the differences between Homejoy, FlyMaids, and Homeaglow? Are they all incorporated as the same entity, or are they all separate? Are different founders of Homejoy working on different angles?
- webo 11y ago
  and cleanerconnect.com
  - IkmoIkmo 11y ago
    and dazzlingcleaning.com, exact copy of Flymaids (i.e. the cached version, Flymaids was taken down just now it seems).
    - gong 11y ago
      how are you finding these related domains?
      - jbwyme 11y ago
        Tried this footprint and found another: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22We+are+Netionwide%22&oq=%22We+are+Netionwide%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.631j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8#q=%22We+are+Netionwide%22&safe=off&nfpr=1&filter=0 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22We+are+Netionwide%22&oq=%...
        slantedview 11y ago
        At least 3 with that same footer - all taken down now. Perhaps a lame attempt to corner the market? Not sure how well that would work out with the exact same content - google punishes such things.
      - IkmoIkmo 11y ago
        Oh just looked at the cached version of the Flymaids website on google and searched for some of the text they had on google. Such as 'Add your specific cleaning instructions and pay securely online by debit or credit card. No cash, no fuss.' Which prompted https://mopp.com https://mopp.com this time, but also willowmaids and urbahome. This is getting beyond ridiculous haha. I'm starting to wonder if this isn't just the lorum ipsum of cleaning websites.
CognitiveLens 11y ago
Do you realize that the post is less about FlyMaids being "unclear" and more about it being completely dishonest, as well as using user data provided to HomeJoy without the permission of those users?
bby 11y ago
If I saw you in person, I'd kick you in the groin for that type of behavior.
chris_wot 11y ago
It is completely unacceptable that you have kept your customer's credit card details. You are completely violating Requirement 3.1 of the latest PCI-DSS (which has been the same since I looked at v2.x of the standard, incidentally): 3.1 Keep cardholder data storage to a minimum by implementing data retention and disposal policies, procedures and processes that include at least the following for all cardholder data (CHD) storage:  Limiting data storage amount and retention time to that which is required for legal, regulatory, and/or business requirements  Specific retention requirements for cardholder data  Processes for secure deletion of data when no longer needed  A quarterly process for identifying and securely deleting stored cardholder data that exceeds defined retention. These standards can be found here: https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/documents/PCI_DSS_v3-1.pdf https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/documents/PCI_DSS_v3-1.... You might be trying to reboot your business, but your Comms didn't say that you were dealing with the same company owners. You also appear to have ripped off a competitors website. You don't sound very trustworthy or reliable. If you can't keep to at least the PCI-DSS standards, what makes you think anyone can trust you moving forward?
- codezero 11y ago
  I am going to sound contrarian, but I don't mean to be. How does this violate PCI-DSS? The data itself is likely stored somewhere secure (who knows) – what's being displayed in the web app is the last four digits of the card and expiration date, this isn't where it's stored. There is obviously a question of what the retention should be, but it's definitely the case that payment information can be transferred between companies. The whole situation exudes a lack of trust, but it's not clear to me that PCI compliance is a problem here.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    I thought it was pretty clear, but I'm willing to elaborate. The requirement is that card data is securely removed when it is no longer required. They are no longer billing customers at HomeJoy as the business has been wound up, so the credit card data should have been deleted. Also: no customer has given them any right to have their credit card billed to an entirely new entity. Credit card information should not be transferred due to sale of customer data to an entirely separate legal business entity because no contract of sale has been established between the customer and that new entity.
pavornyoh 11y ago
>We're a small team that has been focused on moving quickly while bootstraping. We tried to quickly test different approaches, but we realize now that we did so in an unclear manner. Sometimes moving quickly isn't the best although most people say launch fast. Being that homejoy didn't do well,why didn't you take time to research well what you want to do next instead of copying a competitors site word for word? Also, in the email to the person who wrote the article, you referred to flymaids as a "partner". Why not just come out and say it is your company?
jasonlaramburu 11y ago
Aaron, I was a homejoy customer. I am frustrated and concerned that my credit card # was sold to another company without my consent. How can users opt-out of having their data sold to flymaids (or any future ventures)? The fact that flymaids' site is a poorly-built clone of a competitor's site also makes me scared that my data is not being protected.
- nostromo 11y ago
  Your CC is probably safe on Stripe's servers. Which makes me wonder -- does Stripe allow entire accounts to change hands willy-nilly like this?
  - johnsalzarulo 11y ago
    I was wondering the same thing about Stripe or any of the big credit card processors. That'd be shady.
  - jasonlaramburu 11y ago
    Are they using stripe on the new site(s)? Looks like those have all been taken down.
    - justinzollars 11y ago
      If so this information should be deleted. If I were effected I would be pissed. I hope someone at Stripe responds because this is a personal data issue.
  - TimSchumann 11y ago
    My guess is the account never changed hands. Stripe can't really prevent a legitimate owner of an account from doing something stupid with it. At least, not until after the fact.
  - carrja99 11y ago
    Most likely they just have the same API keys
andy_ppp 11y ago
I'm actually tempted to write a response so harsh I'd probably be banned from hacker news. Instead I genuinely hope that YC will force companies taking the 7% into a no selling on data policy; I'm not saying that is easy to write but I am saying this situation without response smears YC, something I'm sure could be avoided in future.
- paulcole 11y ago
  Isn't the ability to collect and sell data a hedge against the huge percentage of companies that are for all practical purposes worthless? Kind of like a store selling its shelves as it goes out of business. May as well get money for anything that's not nailed down.
  - azima 11y ago
    yup. and there are many well-funded startups that pivoted to buying/selling data from all the non-rocketships out there.
- roel_v 11y ago
  "Instead I genuinely hope that YC will force companies taking the 7% into a no selling on data policy" I did a paper on (sort of) this in law school. My focus was on civil law systems and I'm not claiming I'm the world's foremost expert on this topic. With that out of the way, it's not that easy. When a company goes bankrupt, it doesn't have a say on what happens to its assets. Furthermore, a liquidator doesn't have to honor commitments made by the company. (this is also why 'software escrow' in the cheap form that is implemented so often is, imo, legally on shaky ground - this was the actual topic of my paper). So what are the options? One is to put the 'ownership' of customer data (what that means exactly is a whole discussion in itself) into a separate company. But that company can't be owned by the 'real' company, it's tricky in many way. And costly. And makes things (very) difficult, operationally. And it takes away the ownership of a critical asset, making it near impossible to get investment (because who will invest in a company that doesn't 'own' its customer data?) Etc. I don't think anyone follows through on their claims of being 'careful with customer data' to this extent, but then again, of course I don't know the operations of every company in the world. Basically, once you are in a database of a company, and if that database is worth anything, you are up shit creek when that company goes bust - good intentions and promises do not matter one bit. A new guy comes in who doesn't care about his 'reputation' in the field the company was in, who has a legal duty to get the highest price for any assets, and who is not bound by anything the company did or said. It doesn't take a law degree to figure out how that works out for the 'privacy' of the (former) users/customers.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
nostrademons 11y ago
"When a management with a reputation for brilliance tackles a business with a reputation for bad economics, it is the reputation of the business that remains intact." -- Warren Buffett. Why not get out now, lay low for a bit, take a job, learn another industry, and then save up to try again another day?
adamhardin 11y ago
For user's to automatically log in, it appears that you didn't move data to FlyMainds as much as FlyMaids is the new face to the old HomeJoy site and database.
ebbv 11y ago
Everything you did is 100% wrong and makes you look like a Grade A sleezeball.
fossuser 11y ago
PR is difficult - especially on Hacker News. Sometimes people respond excessively harshly (which I think unfortunately makes people less likely to engage the community at all). Bad press sucks and can be hard, it'll pass though - good to be cautious with this kind of thing in the future (which you probably will be). I was a Homejoy customer too and don't think this is that big a deal all things considered.
- pavornyoh 11y ago
  >I was a Homejoy customer too and don't think this is that big a deal all things considered. It is a big deal. He copied a competitors site word for word. He has 3 other cleaning companies and it appears people who signed up with homejoy have their info. moved to these companies. Customers need to know when their data is going to be used and they have to give consent. Perhaps this fresh article will show the severity of the matter- http://www.businessinsider.com/aaron-cheung-brings-homejoy-customers-to-fly-maids-2015-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/aaron-cheung-brings-homejoy-c...
joseakle 11y ago
Is your site www.flymaids.com ? Seems to be down, getting a Heroku no such app error.
- nacs 11y ago
  It's not down, whoever is involved is actively taking down the site (to attempt to hide any evidence I'm guessing). Originally the whole site was up, then they removed the support site, then a few hours later, the entire site.
simoneau 11y ago
Thanks for clarifying what is going on. For me, however, the weasel-worded "we realize now that we did so in an unclear manner" is completely different than "we realize now we made a big mistake".
- ranko 11y ago
  See the marvellous http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-interactive-guide-to-ambiguous-grammar http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-interactive-guide-to-a... (discussed here at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10449660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10449660)
zero-rated 11y ago
I recently listened to the Audiobook called "$2.00 a Day". It described how an extremely impoverished young mother in Chicago worked for a startup cleaning service, and what an unfair, laborious job it was. From what I've read about Homejoyy the past few days, it sounds like that is where she was working. I don't expect the ex-founder to confirm though. The audiobook was a heart-rending listen, but I recommend it: http://www.audible.com/pd/Nonfiction/200-a-Day-Audiobook/B012E8UDOI http://www.audible.com/pd/Nonfiction/200-a-Day-Audiobook/B01...
7Figures2Commas 11y ago
1. From http://cleanerconnect.com/ http://cleanerconnect.com/, which appears to be connected to your new venture: > Cleaner Connect is not an employer, but simply connects independent service professionals with customers Your Homejoy co-founder stated lawsuits over worker misclassification were the "deciding factor" in the decision to wind Homejoy down[1]. Assuming cleanerconnect.com is indeed part of your new venture, the above suggests your "testing" involves the same flawed contracting strategy that contributed to Homejoy's demise. 2. Your email to former Homejoy customers encourages them to use a "partner" service. You fail, however, to disclose that you are actually a principal of the "partner" business. Additionally, your comment suggests that FlyMaids is not actually a partner of a company that is supposedly winding down but rather is the acquirer of certain Homejoy assets. 3. As far as I can tell, neither FlyMaids or Homeaglow were ever featured by Oprah, The New York Times, etc., yet this claim is/was being made on their sites. 4. There are multiple sites (http://www.dazzlingcleaning.com http://www.dazzlingcleaning.com, http://www.homeaglow.com/ http://www.homeaglow.com/ and http://www.flymaids.com/ http://www.flymaids.com/) that appear to be connected to your new venture. Each of their terms of service refers to Delaware corporations that don't seem to exist. Humble advice: you might want to rethink your passion for the home service space. And make sure you have a good attorney on retainer. [1] http://recode.net/2015/07/17/cleaning-services-startup-homejoy-shuts-down-after-battling-worker-classification-lawsuits/ http://recode.net/2015/07/17/cleaning-services-startup-homej...
- pavornyoh 11y ago
  >3. As far as I can tell, neither FlyMaids or Homeaglow were ever featured by Oprah, The New York Times, etc., yet this claim is/was being made on their sites. Thank you. I asked the same question below and got some downvotes for it. Falsifying things like that is a big sham. I see on homeaglow, the company claims more features on Rachels (whatever that is).
bksenior 11y ago
Dude, you weren't unclear. You literally lied by copying customer testimony to mislead. At least apologize or take some responsibility. Id honestly rather you not say anything than this extremely weak response.
llamataboot 11y ago
Why did you copy Handy's site verbatim? Why did you not give customers the option to opt-in to your new venture? Why did you post the logos of news organizations that had never written you up?
- dopamean 11y ago
  The answer to all of those questions is: they are dishonest.
  - lemevi 11y ago
    > We recently acquired the customer and service provider data from Homejoy. That's all you really need to know about FlyMaids and Homejoy. If I ran a startup into the ground I would never ever betray my customers by selling their data!
    - brownbat 11y ago
      > If I ran a startup into the ground I would never ever betray my customers by selling their data! When you run a business into the ground, some decisions about what you sell get taken over by courts, at the direction of your creditors. When you trust your data with a company, you're not just trusting its ethics, you're trusting its long term viability too.
      - 7Figures2Commas 11y ago
        > When you run a business into the ground, some decisions about what you sell get taken over by courts, at the direction of your creditors. This is true, but a lot of this "story" still seems strange, especially in light of the fact that all of the sites that appear to be associated with Cheung's new venture have been taken offline. There are a number of well-funded players in this space, some of which might have an interest in acquiring Homejoy's data. How did the twenty-something co-founder of the failed business come to acquire the data? Did outside investors provide funding for the new venture and its acquisition of the data? Were any of those investors also investors in Homejoy? Why weren't former Homejoy customers simply informed that another company had acquired their information in an honest, transparent fashion (the way most companies handle transactions of this nature)? It's worth pointing out that the email Cheung sent to former Homejoy customers about FlyMaids stated that FlyMaids "work[s] with Homejoy's best cleaners." If that is true, it would appear this new venture is essentially just Homejoy reincarnated, begging questions about Homejoy's liabilities. Assuming the lawsuits against Homejoy haven't settled, I'd imagine the attorneys behind those lawsuits might have an interest in what's going on.
aarontcheung 11y ago
I wanted to follow up and address some concerns mentioned in this thread, and acknowledge that I definitely made mistakes. How did you get my information? We acquired Homejoy’s domain and customer information through an ABC process. Our intention is to improve and then relaunch Homejoy’s cleaning service. We were testing a new model using Fly Maids, one of our testing brands. As evidenced today, we made some mistakes. Why is your email and website so misleading? When we contacted customers, we didn’t tell them we were Homejoy relaunching because we wanted to gauge reception to our new model without the influence of Homejoy’s brand. As a result, we scared many customers, who expected the worst had happened to their data. We should have told customers upfront who we were, what we were testing, and used original content. Do you have my credit card info? No, as of Oct 28 2015, we deleted all credit card info, including the last 4 digits. Also, the Homejoy Stripe account has been permanently shut down so no one can get access to it in any manner. At no point did we ever charge a Homejoy customer’s credit card. How do I delete my account information to ensure that it is not used in any way? Please go here http://goo.gl/forms/YPdJlYJ9Pn http://goo.gl/forms/YPdJlYJ9Pn
- GigabyteCoin 11y ago
  Since you're fielding questions now; why did you copy Handy's website (including testimonials)? You can't write that off as simply being an honest mistake or testing new ideas. You went to college. That's plagiarism.
- chejazi 11y ago
  Regarding the last point on continued access to account information: opting-out from this is much worse than opting-in. Think of all the people who used homejoy and don't read HN - wouldn't they want the same?
- jjman 11y ago
  I was not a Homejoy customer but from a general point of view I reckon you need to communicate to all the customers in your file and clearly let them know the truth about everything. That is the only way that you can redeem yourself from this. Good luck.
- 11y ago
OJFord 11y ago
I find it so hard to believe that anyone could possibly think going live with a total clone of a competitor's website for "testing" is a good idea. Maybe, _maybe_, for offline testing with small focus groups. But even then, what's the point? You could just show them the competitor site and ask what the dis/like..
raritanone 11y ago
Immature know-nothing who thinks he's slick but is obviously making improper (unlawful?) use of private financial information. In no other business would you give a kid millions of dollars and expect him to not waste it on shiny objects like aero chairs and not toss him on his ass when ranting Start Up Speak. I'm so passionate about my comment I think I'll change the world.

seancoleman 11y ago

Typically investment contracts employ non-competes to prevent founders from starting new businesses in similar spaces. Clearly this person's previous actions aren't the most ethical but I'm curious what his strategy is around this.

mentat 11y ago
Aren't all non-competes illegal in California?
- slantedview 11y ago
  If you're willing to go to battle in court, they are.
- bravo22 11y ago
  For employment they are unenforceable but this is a different situation. It would be part of an investment contract and it is very much enforceable.

dsr_ 11y ago

I'm upvoting you to get your response attention. Don't mistake that for approval of what you did.

pavornyoh 11y ago
>Don't mistake that for approval of what you did. If Aaron can answer though, I am curious if he was planning to get back into YC with flymaids?

jrochkind1 11y ago

You're passionate about a "space"?

rconti 11y ago
And keeping it clean!
wpietri 11y ago
It's jargon, but people definitely are like that. There are a horde of people who just want to do Bitcoin or VR or video games, for example. They're less concerned with the specific company than something about the tech, the users, or the market.
- jrochkind1 11y ago
  Oh, I understand being passionate about video games, or VR, or Bitcoin, or even, maybe, although it's a stretch, helping people keep their houses clean. And wanting to work in that area. When you say you're passionate about a "space" though, I think you reveal that all you're really saying is you think you can make a lot of money in that "space". Which isn't passion at all. Well, maybe passionate about making money. Which is more like at best ambition or at worst greed, not actually passion.
  - volaski 11y ago
    While I think this is a stupid move on the founder's end and there's no debate about that, I disagree with your understanding of what "passion" is. People seem to think most passionate people are born with some sort of pre-assigned passion, but it's something that arises out of your experience and action. Just like Thomas Edison was "passionate" about what he built (but he was super greedy and an asshole too), this guy probably became obsessed with this "space" after having worked on it for such a long time, even though 5 years ago he probably didn't care about home cleaning at all.
    - jrochkind1 11y ago

nedwin 11y ago

Are any of the other cofounders or team joining you in FlyMaids?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

JoblessWonder 11y ago

Is your business actually registered anywhere? If so, under what name? Thanks!

Balgair 11y ago

Welp, might as well ask if no-one else is: What do you mean by 'exploring a few different angles on the space'? How is you new service going to be better than Home Joy or different? Essentially, considering what happened to Home Joy, why is it going to be different this time around? Great job on Home Joy the first time 'round, btw.

jarek 11y ago
Lowering costs by ripping competitors' HTML, CSS, and copy
fleitz 11y ago
Same great technology, less debt / more equity.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- rokhayakebe 11y ago
  AND a list of 100 mistakes I won't make.

iamcurious 11y ago

I'm starting to read "passionate about" as "wanting to make money of". I have to make an effort to read it in the classical sense. I fear the same will happen with "share". And when my kids talk about sharing at school I will only think of flooding with memes or of selling things. Now, I'm not a native english speaker, so I can't say if aarontcheung is misusing the term or not. Is this change happening to the english culture as a whole? Or am I reading way too many silicon valley articles?

johncolanduoni 11y ago
It is most definitely the latter, although SV isn't the only place this happens.
- huac 11y ago
  Deutsche Bank's slogan is "Passion to Perform"
Retra 11y ago
I hear a lot of people using "passionate about" to mean "committed to" because it prevents others from trying to convince you that you're making a mistake.
throwaway2048 11y ago
nah there is certainly a cheapening of the language when such bullshit is thrown around so freely.
- user_0001 11y ago
  just another bullshit marketing term. I cannot believe these type of people really think that those reading it will go "wow this guy really cares about some low paid worker cleaning my house well, I will go with them". Just seems so contrived and fake to me :-\
christop 11y ago
You're certainly not the only one to think that the term is somewhat misused: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz2-49q6DOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz2-49q6DOI

bigtones 11y ago

And when I say "testing different approaches" I mean: * completely ripping off competitor business websites * throwing PCI compliance and SSL encryption out the window * generally treating our VC money purchased customers from our old firm like commodity dirt. This one is gonna be a winner for sure.

SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
>throwing PCI compliance and SSL encryption out the window If they were using Stripe or similar, then they don't have access to your credit cards. Only the last four digits and expiration.
- danhak 11y ago
  How bout the part where they're sending expiration date and last 4 digits over http?
  - __P 11y ago
    That isn't secure information... Emails often contain that info, which is kind of worse than HTTP.
    - slantedview 11y ago
      But it is secure information. If I recall, last 4 digits were part of how the CIA chief's e-mail was hacked recently.
      - SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
        No, it's not secure information. Any time you use last-4 as something secure, you're doing it wrong. As mentioned above, last-4 is sent by email frequently, and email passes, unencrypted, through intermediate servers all over the Internet. Any compromised host can observe all of the email that passes through it. Any process that uses last-4 to unlock a password or otherwise as a secure token is broken by design.

birken 11y ago

In my experience, life is easier when you admit your mistakes without business speak, and just take the blame (for example: "I" instead of "We"). I've written a lot of mea culpas for mistakes which impacted customers, and the more direct and transparent I was, the better responses I always got. You made a mistake, you know you made a mistake. Admit it, apologize, and move on. Your excuses or context probably aren't going to help your cause.

roymurdock 11y ago
When that mistake might be very costly litigation-wise, and anything you say/do might be brought up in court, it's time to break out the business speak and obfuscate like there is no tomorrow.
- wpietri 11y ago
  Maybe. That sort of nonsense may decrease the odds of losing a lawsuit. But you increase your odds of having a lawsuit, because you leave more people mad at you. That might be a good choice for a large company, as they already have lawyers on staff, can afford to pay for a lawsuit, and have enough money to advertise away the reputational stain. I'm not sure it's a good idea for a startup, though. Unless you are well funded, just dealing with a lawsuit could be fatal given the reputational cost, the legal bills, and the amount of founder time that will get soaked up. Personally, I'd try to be human and humane about it.
  - roymurdock 11y ago
    Agreed, I think it would be better to be frank and honest in this situation. Just trying to provide some kind of rationale for why he responded in such a business-like manner.
- wangarific 11y ago
  It's time to lawyer up and not talk at all.

shashashasha 11y ago

What are the differences between Homejoy, FlyMaids, and Homeaglow? Are they all incorporated as the same entity, or are they all separate? Are different founders of Homejoy working on different angles?

webo 11y ago
and cleanerconnect.com
- IkmoIkmo 11y ago
  and dazzlingcleaning.com, exact copy of Flymaids (i.e. the cached version, Flymaids was taken down just now it seems).
  - gong 11y ago
    how are you finding these related domains?
    - jbwyme 11y ago
      Tried this footprint and found another: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22We+are+Netionwide%22&oq=%22We+are+Netionwide%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.631j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8#q=%22We+are+Netionwide%22&safe=off&nfpr=1&filter=0 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22We+are+Netionwide%22&oq=%...
      - slantedview 11y ago
        At least 3 with that same footer - all taken down now. Perhaps a lame attempt to corner the market? Not sure how well that would work out with the exact same content - google punishes such things.
    - IkmoIkmo 11y ago
      Oh just looked at the cached version of the Flymaids website on google and searched for some of the text they had on google. Such as 'Add your specific cleaning instructions and pay securely online by debit or credit card. No cash, no fuss.' Which prompted https://mopp.com https://mopp.com this time, but also willowmaids and urbahome. This is getting beyond ridiculous haha. I'm starting to wonder if this isn't just the lorum ipsum of cleaning websites.

CognitiveLens 11y ago

Do you realize that the post is less about FlyMaids being "unclear" and more about it being completely dishonest, as well as using user data provided to HomeJoy without the permission of those users?

bby 11y ago

If I saw you in person, I'd kick you in the groin for that type of behavior.

chris_wot 11y ago

It is completely unacceptable that you have kept your customer's credit card details. You are completely violating Requirement 3.1 of the latest PCI-DSS (which has been the same since I looked at v2.x of the standard, incidentally): 3.1 Keep cardholder data storage to a minimum by implementing data retention and disposal policies, procedures and processes that include at least the following for all cardholder data (CHD) storage:  Limiting data storage amount and retention time to that which is required for legal, regulatory, and/or business requirements  Specific retention requirements for cardholder data  Processes for secure deletion of data when no longer needed  A quarterly process for identifying and securely deleting stored cardholder data that exceeds defined retention. These standards can be found here: https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/documents/PCI_DSS_v3-1.pdf https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/documents/PCI_DSS_v3-1.... You might be trying to reboot your business, but your Comms didn't say that you were dealing with the same company owners. You also appear to have ripped off a competitors website. You don't sound very trustworthy or reliable. If you can't keep to at least the PCI-DSS standards, what makes you think anyone can trust you moving forward?

codezero 11y ago
I am going to sound contrarian, but I don't mean to be. How does this violate PCI-DSS? The data itself is likely stored somewhere secure (who knows) – what's being displayed in the web app is the last four digits of the card and expiration date, this isn't where it's stored. There is obviously a question of what the retention should be, but it's definitely the case that payment information can be transferred between companies. The whole situation exudes a lack of trust, but it's not clear to me that PCI compliance is a problem here.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  I thought it was pretty clear, but I'm willing to elaborate. The requirement is that card data is securely removed when it is no longer required. They are no longer billing customers at HomeJoy as the business has been wound up, so the credit card data should have been deleted. Also: no customer has given them any right to have their credit card billed to an entirely new entity. Credit card information should not be transferred due to sale of customer data to an entirely separate legal business entity because no contract of sale has been established between the customer and that new entity.

pavornyoh 11y ago

>We're a small team that has been focused on moving quickly while bootstraping. We tried to quickly test different approaches, but we realize now that we did so in an unclear manner. Sometimes moving quickly isn't the best although most people say launch fast. Being that homejoy didn't do well,why didn't you take time to research well what you want to do next instead of copying a competitors site word for word? Also, in the email to the person who wrote the article, you referred to flymaids as a "partner". Why not just come out and say it is your company?

jasonlaramburu 11y ago

Aaron, I was a homejoy customer. I am frustrated and concerned that my credit card # was sold to another company without my consent. How can users opt-out of having their data sold to flymaids (or any future ventures)? The fact that flymaids' site is a poorly-built clone of a competitor's site also makes me scared that my data is not being protected.

nostromo 11y ago
Your CC is probably safe on Stripe's servers. Which makes me wonder -- does Stripe allow entire accounts to change hands willy-nilly like this?
- johnsalzarulo 11y ago
  I was wondering the same thing about Stripe or any of the big credit card processors. That'd be shady.
- jasonlaramburu 11y ago
  Are they using stripe on the new site(s)? Looks like those have all been taken down.
  - justinzollars 11y ago
    If so this information should be deleted. If I were effected I would be pissed. I hope someone at Stripe responds because this is a personal data issue.
- TimSchumann 11y ago
  My guess is the account never changed hands. Stripe can't really prevent a legitimate owner of an account from doing something stupid with it. At least, not until after the fact.
- carrja99 11y ago
  Most likely they just have the same API keys

andy_ppp 11y ago

I'm actually tempted to write a response so harsh I'd probably be banned from hacker news. Instead I genuinely hope that YC will force companies taking the 7% into a no selling on data policy; I'm not saying that is easy to write but I am saying this situation without response smears YC, something I'm sure could be avoided in future.

paulcole 11y ago
Isn't the ability to collect and sell data a hedge against the huge percentage of companies that are for all practical purposes worthless? Kind of like a store selling its shelves as it goes out of business. May as well get money for anything that's not nailed down.
- azima 11y ago
  yup. and there are many well-funded startups that pivoted to buying/selling data from all the non-rocketships out there.
roel_v 11y ago
"Instead I genuinely hope that YC will force companies taking the 7% into a no selling on data policy" I did a paper on (sort of) this in law school. My focus was on civil law systems and I'm not claiming I'm the world's foremost expert on this topic. With that out of the way, it's not that easy. When a company goes bankrupt, it doesn't have a say on what happens to its assets. Furthermore, a liquidator doesn't have to honor commitments made by the company. (this is also why 'software escrow' in the cheap form that is implemented so often is, imo, legally on shaky ground - this was the actual topic of my paper). So what are the options? One is to put the 'ownership' of customer data (what that means exactly is a whole discussion in itself) into a separate company. But that company can't be owned by the 'real' company, it's tricky in many way. And costly. And makes things (very) difficult, operationally. And it takes away the ownership of a critical asset, making it near impossible to get investment (because who will invest in a company that doesn't 'own' its customer data?) Etc. I don't think anyone follows through on their claims of being 'careful with customer data' to this extent, but then again, of course I don't know the operations of every company in the world. Basically, once you are in a database of a company, and if that database is worth anything, you are up shit creek when that company goes bust - good intentions and promises do not matter one bit. A new guy comes in who doesn't care about his 'reputation' in the field the company was in, who has a legal duty to get the highest price for any assets, and who is not bound by anything the company did or said. It doesn't take a law degree to figure out how that works out for the 'privacy' of the (former) users/customers.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

nostrademons 11y ago

"When a management with a reputation for brilliance tackles a business with a reputation for bad economics, it is the reputation of the business that remains intact." -- Warren Buffett. Why not get out now, lay low for a bit, take a job, learn another industry, and then save up to try again another day?

adamhardin 11y ago

For user's to automatically log in, it appears that you didn't move data to FlyMainds as much as FlyMaids is the new face to the old HomeJoy site and database.

ebbv 11y ago

Everything you did is 100% wrong and makes you look like a Grade A sleezeball.

fossuser 11y ago

PR is difficult - especially on Hacker News. Sometimes people respond excessively harshly (which I think unfortunately makes people less likely to engage the community at all). Bad press sucks and can be hard, it'll pass though - good to be cautious with this kind of thing in the future (which you probably will be). I was a Homejoy customer too and don't think this is that big a deal all things considered.

pavornyoh 11y ago
>I was a Homejoy customer too and don't think this is that big a deal all things considered. It is a big deal. He copied a competitors site word for word. He has 3 other cleaning companies and it appears people who signed up with homejoy have their info. moved to these companies. Customers need to know when their data is going to be used and they have to give consent. Perhaps this fresh article will show the severity of the matter- http://www.businessinsider.com/aaron-cheung-brings-homejoy-customers-to-fly-maids-2015-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/aaron-cheung-brings-homejoy-c...

joseakle 11y ago

Is your site www.flymaids.com ? Seems to be down, getting a Heroku no such app error.

nacs 11y ago
It's not down, whoever is involved is actively taking down the site (to attempt to hide any evidence I'm guessing). Originally the whole site was up, then they removed the support site, then a few hours later, the entire site.

simoneau 11y ago

Thanks for clarifying what is going on. For me, however, the weasel-worded "we realize now that we did so in an unclear manner" is completely different than "we realize now we made a big mistake".

ranko 11y ago
See the marvellous http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-interactive-guide-to-ambiguous-grammar http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-interactive-guide-to-a... (discussed here at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10449660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10449660)

zero-rated 11y ago

I recently listened to the Audiobook called "$2.00 a Day". It described how an extremely impoverished young mother in Chicago worked for a startup cleaning service, and what an unfair, laborious job it was. From what I've read about Homejoyy the past few days, it sounds like that is where she was working. I don't expect the ex-founder to confirm though. The audiobook was a heart-rending listen, but I recommend it: http://www.audible.com/pd/Nonfiction/200-a-Day-Audiobook/B012E8UDOI http://www.audible.com/pd/Nonfiction/200-a-Day-Audiobook/B01...

7Figures2Commas 11y ago

1. From http://cleanerconnect.com/ http://cleanerconnect.com/, which appears to be connected to your new venture: > Cleaner Connect is not an employer, but simply connects independent service professionals with customers Your Homejoy co-founder stated lawsuits over worker misclassification were the "deciding factor" in the decision to wind Homejoy down[1]. Assuming cleanerconnect.com is indeed part of your new venture, the above suggests your "testing" involves the same flawed contracting strategy that contributed to Homejoy's demise. 2. Your email to former Homejoy customers encourages them to use a "partner" service. You fail, however, to disclose that you are actually a principal of the "partner" business. Additionally, your comment suggests that FlyMaids is not actually a partner of a company that is supposedly winding down but rather is the acquirer of certain Homejoy assets. 3. As far as I can tell, neither FlyMaids or Homeaglow were ever featured by Oprah, The New York Times, etc., yet this claim is/was being made on their sites. 4. There are multiple sites (http://www.dazzlingcleaning.com http://www.dazzlingcleaning.com, http://www.homeaglow.com/ http://www.homeaglow.com/ and http://www.flymaids.com/ http://www.flymaids.com/) that appear to be connected to your new venture. Each of their terms of service refers to Delaware corporations that don't seem to exist. Humble advice: you might want to rethink your passion for the home service space. And make sure you have a good attorney on retainer. [1] http://recode.net/2015/07/17/cleaning-services-startup-homejoy-shuts-down-after-battling-worker-classification-lawsuits/ http://recode.net/2015/07/17/cleaning-services-startup-homej...

pavornyoh 11y ago
>3. As far as I can tell, neither FlyMaids or Homeaglow were ever featured by Oprah, The New York Times, etc., yet this claim is/was being made on their sites. Thank you. I asked the same question below and got some downvotes for it. Falsifying things like that is a big sham. I see on homeaglow, the company claims more features on Rachels (whatever that is).

bksenior 11y ago

Dude, you weren't unclear. You literally lied by copying customer testimony to mislead. At least apologize or take some responsibility. Id honestly rather you not say anything than this extremely weak response.

llamataboot 11y ago

Why did you copy Handy's site verbatim? Why did you not give customers the option to opt-in to your new venture? Why did you post the logos of news organizations that had never written you up?

dopamean 11y ago
The answer to all of those questions is: they are dishonest.
- lemevi 11y ago
  > We recently acquired the customer and service provider data from Homejoy. That's all you really need to know about FlyMaids and Homejoy. If I ran a startup into the ground I would never ever betray my customers by selling their data!
  - brownbat 11y ago
    > If I ran a startup into the ground I would never ever betray my customers by selling their data! When you run a business into the ground, some decisions about what you sell get taken over by courts, at the direction of your creditors. When you trust your data with a company, you're not just trusting its ethics, you're trusting its long term viability too.
    - 7Figures2Commas 11y ago
      > When you run a business into the ground, some decisions about what you sell get taken over by courts, at the direction of your creditors. This is true, but a lot of this "story" still seems strange, especially in light of the fact that all of the sites that appear to be associated with Cheung's new venture have been taken offline. There are a number of well-funded players in this space, some of which might have an interest in acquiring Homejoy's data. How did the twenty-something co-founder of the failed business come to acquire the data? Did outside investors provide funding for the new venture and its acquisition of the data? Were any of those investors also investors in Homejoy? Why weren't former Homejoy customers simply informed that another company had acquired their information in an honest, transparent fashion (the way most companies handle transactions of this nature)? It's worth pointing out that the email Cheung sent to former Homejoy customers about FlyMaids stated that FlyMaids "work[s] with Homejoy's best cleaners." If that is true, it would appear this new venture is essentially just Homejoy reincarnated, begging questions about Homejoy's liabilities. Assuming the lawsuits against Homejoy haven't settled, I'd imagine the attorneys behind those lawsuits might have an interest in what's going on.

aarontcheung 11y ago

I wanted to follow up and address some concerns mentioned in this thread, and acknowledge that I definitely made mistakes. How did you get my information? We acquired Homejoy’s domain and customer information through an ABC process. Our intention is to improve and then relaunch Homejoy’s cleaning service. We were testing a new model using Fly Maids, one of our testing brands. As evidenced today, we made some mistakes. Why is your email and website so misleading? When we contacted customers, we didn’t tell them we were Homejoy relaunching because we wanted to gauge reception to our new model without the influence of Homejoy’s brand. As a result, we scared many customers, who expected the worst had happened to their data. We should have told customers upfront who we were, what we were testing, and used original content. Do you have my credit card info? No, as of Oct 28 2015, we deleted all credit card info, including the last 4 digits. Also, the Homejoy Stripe account has been permanently shut down so no one can get access to it in any manner. At no point did we ever charge a Homejoy customer’s credit card. How do I delete my account information to ensure that it is not used in any way? Please go here http://goo.gl/forms/YPdJlYJ9Pn http://goo.gl/forms/YPdJlYJ9Pn

GigabyteCoin 11y ago
Since you're fielding questions now; why did you copy Handy's website (including testimonials)? You can't write that off as simply being an honest mistake or testing new ideas. You went to college. That's plagiarism.
chejazi 11y ago
Regarding the last point on continued access to account information: opting-out from this is much worse than opting-in. Think of all the people who used homejoy and don't read HN - wouldn't they want the same?
jjman 11y ago
I was not a Homejoy customer but from a general point of view I reckon you need to communicate to all the customers in your file and clearly let them know the truth about everything. That is the only way that you can redeem yourself from this. Good luck.
11y ago

OJFord 11y ago

I find it so hard to believe that anyone could possibly think going live with a total clone of a competitor's website for "testing" is a good idea. Maybe, _maybe_, for offline testing with small focus groups. But even then, what's the point? You could just show them the competitor site and ask what the dis/like..

raritanone 11y ago

Immature know-nothing who thinks he's slick but is obviously making improper (unlawful?) use of private financial information. In no other business would you give a kid millions of dollars and expect him to not waste it on shiny objects like aero chairs and not toss him on his ass when ranting Start Up Speak. I'm so passionate about my comment I think I'll change the world.