4 ms·

Just as a side-note (IANAL), in the EU, retailers can't refuse to fix something just because it's past their warranty period. If you can establish that the prod

by blowski 11y ago

Just as a side-note (IANAL), in the EU, retailers can't refuse to fix something just because it's past their warranty period. If you can establish that the product has broke under reasonable use then you can argue that the product wasn't fit for purpose when you bought it, and therefore it is still the retailer's responsibility to repair it, replace it or give you a partial refund. I did this with Apple when my logic board failed just under two years after buying a Macbook Pro 2009 model. I argued that the product had only experienced normal use, Apple's website implied that their laptops should last 5 years (since they talk about upgrading Macbooks for 5 years), and the price of the laptop was a premium price so I should expect it to last for that period of time. It took a bit of arguing, but in the end they did the work for free.

shocks 11y ago
This is excellent advice. Thank you! I will be remembering this...
creshal 11y ago
Usually you have a warranty exception on batteries, though, because they naturally degrade with use.
- newjersey 11y ago
  I assume Apple is still liable, at least for Europe. I'd say Apple knows very well the requirements very well too and the stronger consumer protection factors into the decision of manufacturers to price their devices higher in Europe.
  - jahewson 11y ago
    The don't price their devices higher in Europe, they explicitly include free AppleCare. So it's the bundled warranty service that pushes up the price.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
      > they explicitly include free AppleCare They don't. You have to buy AppleCare if you want it: http://www.apple.com/uk/support/products/mac.html http://www.apple.com/uk/support/products/mac.html
- blowski 11y ago
  If you complained after 2 years that your battery was less effective than when you bought it, you wouldn't have a case. But if it failed completely, then you probably would.
ant6n 11y ago
Similar laws apply in Quebec.
DavidAdams 11y ago
That would partially explain why an Apple laptop in Europe routinely costs $500+ more than in the US.
- catkin 11y ago
  Except that they don't. The base 13 inch MBP costs $1299 in the US and £999 in the UK, which converts to $1531.52 at the time I wrote this comment, for a difference of ~$230. The mid-level costs $1499 in the US and £1199 in the UK, which converts to $1838, a difference of $339.
  - austenallred 11y ago
    And the cost of AppleCare is $200-$349. So in other words, you're basically required to have AppleCare.
    - fendale 11y ago
      The biggest part of the EU cost difference is sales tax which is 20% in the UK and only 8.5% in California I think.
      - jahewson 11y ago
        Actually the US prices don't include tax. That gets added during the checkout. Also the EU products include AppleCare (due to EU warrenty laws), which costs $249 extra in the US. So it's actually cheaper in Britain if you're going to be buying AppleCare.
  - riquito 11y ago
    > The base 13 inch MBP costs $1299 in the US and £999 in the UK Are they both `after taxes`?
    - jahewson 11y ago
      The US price is pre-tax (depends on state: 8.5% in California). The UK price, like most other countries in the world, already includes all taxes (VAT is 20%). In California the $1299 MBP will actually cost you $1414 including sales tax, a difference of just $117. In the UK the price includes AppleCare (under EU law), which would cost an extra $249 in the US. So if you were going to buy AppleCare anyway, then it's actually ~£85 cheaper overall in the UK.
donkeyd 11y ago
> establish that the product has broke under reasonable use This is incredibly tough to prove. Also, in some countries, the burden of proof is with the consumer as soon as 6 months after purchasing (Netherlands). People think that the EU law makes them incredibly powerful. However, if you are arguing with a well-informed employee, the outcome might not be what you expect.
hackaflocka 11y ago
The arguing, was it face-to-face or via email. I can do email, but I hate arguing with people face-to-face. Also, if it was face-to-face, was it with just one person, or did it take escalating (and if it did, how many levels did you need to escalate, and who made the final decision?). Sorry for all these questions, I just want to become a more informed and effective consumer.
- blowski 11y ago
  It was face-to-face - I went to the Apple Store (in Covent Garden, London) having booked an appointment with the Genius Bar. I explained the problem, and they ran a program from a USB stick and then said it was because the logic board had issues. They offered to fix it for roughly £400, and I: * quoted the specific law, and had a print out from the relevant website - it was either Which or Gov.uk or something reputable (i.e. not one of my Hacker News comments) * demonstrated that others had the same problem - I found posts on StackOverflow and the Apple forums * that I had used the laptop reasonably - it wasn't damaged in any way, and I had a list of the things for which I used the laptop * I also pointed out that I was a great Apple customer - I had an iPad, an iPhone, and spent a fair bit in the App Store. The rep went to his manager, and came out a few minutes later saying they agreed to fix the issue for free. I'm quite introverted and hate confrontation as well, so my advice would be to pre-plan but without making specific scenarios of what might happen. If you have things in writing, it makes you more confident and it makes the reps a bit more nervous as you have a record of the conversation. Also, definitely keep things impersonal. Make it clear that you're not attacking the rep, or even the company, but just the specific policy which you disagree with. Finally, don't make threats like "I'll post this on social media" or "I'll tell all my friends not to buy from you" as the rep's response will typically be "Go on then". Keep calm, professional and friendly, and a majority of the time the reps will be reasonable and try to help you. Hope that helps!
josu 11y ago
>I did this with Apple when my logic board failed just under two years after buying a Macbook Pro 2009 model. If it was under two years, then it was covered by the warranty. [1] [1] http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroa...
- blowski 11y ago
  I was referring to Apple's "one year limited warranty" [1] which suggests you are covered only for one year, and must buy AppleCare to get any free maintenance after that period. With the 2 year guarantee, after 6 months you need to establish that the defect existed on the product at the time of purchase. So if the battery stops working after 18 months, you need to establish that it was a faulty battery when you bought it, instead of you damaging the battery through misuse. This even extends beyond 2 years, for the period of time that you would expect the item to work given the price of the product and the manufacturer's claims, but obviously it gets harder to establish the older the product. [1] http://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/mac-english-uk.html http://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/mac-english-uk....

by blowski 11y ago

shocks 11y ago

This is excellent advice. Thank you! I will be remembering this...

creshal 11y ago

Usually you have a warranty exception on batteries, though, because they naturally degrade with use.

newjersey 11y ago
I assume Apple is still liable, at least for Europe. I'd say Apple knows very well the requirements very well too and the stronger consumer protection factors into the decision of manufacturers to price their devices higher in Europe.
- jahewson 11y ago
  The don't price their devices higher in Europe, they explicitly include free AppleCare. So it's the bundled warranty service that pushes up the price.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    > they explicitly include free AppleCare They don't. You have to buy AppleCare if you want it: http://www.apple.com/uk/support/products/mac.html http://www.apple.com/uk/support/products/mac.html
blowski 11y ago
If you complained after 2 years that your battery was less effective than when you bought it, you wouldn't have a case. But if it failed completely, then you probably would.

ant6n 11y ago

Similar laws apply in Quebec.

DavidAdams 11y ago

That would partially explain why an Apple laptop in Europe routinely costs $500+ more than in the US.

catkin 11y ago
Except that they don't. The base 13 inch MBP costs $1299 in the US and £999 in the UK, which converts to $1531.52 at the time I wrote this comment, for a difference of ~$230. The mid-level costs $1499 in the US and £1199 in the UK, which converts to $1838, a difference of $339.
- austenallred 11y ago
  And the cost of AppleCare is $200-$349. So in other words, you're basically required to have AppleCare.
  - fendale 11y ago
    The biggest part of the EU cost difference is sales tax which is 20% in the UK and only 8.5% in California I think.
    - jahewson 11y ago
      Actually the US prices don't include tax. That gets added during the checkout. Also the EU products include AppleCare (due to EU warrenty laws), which costs $249 extra in the US. So it's actually cheaper in Britain if you're going to be buying AppleCare.
- riquito 11y ago
  > The base 13 inch MBP costs $1299 in the US and £999 in the UK Are they both `after taxes`?
  - jahewson 11y ago
    The US price is pre-tax (depends on state: 8.5% in California). The UK price, like most other countries in the world, already includes all taxes (VAT is 20%). In California the $1299 MBP will actually cost you $1414 including sales tax, a difference of just $117. In the UK the price includes AppleCare (under EU law), which would cost an extra $249 in the US. So if you were going to buy AppleCare anyway, then it's actually ~£85 cheaper overall in the UK.

donkeyd 11y ago

> establish that the product has broke under reasonable use This is incredibly tough to prove. Also, in some countries, the burden of proof is with the consumer as soon as 6 months after purchasing (Netherlands). People think that the EU law makes them incredibly powerful. However, if you are arguing with a well-informed employee, the outcome might not be what you expect.

hackaflocka 11y ago

The arguing, was it face-to-face or via email. I can do email, but I hate arguing with people face-to-face. Also, if it was face-to-face, was it with just one person, or did it take escalating (and if it did, how many levels did you need to escalate, and who made the final decision?). Sorry for all these questions, I just want to become a more informed and effective consumer.

blowski 11y ago
It was face-to-face - I went to the Apple Store (in Covent Garden, London) having booked an appointment with the Genius Bar. I explained the problem, and they ran a program from a USB stick and then said it was because the logic board had issues. They offered to fix it for roughly £400, and I: * quoted the specific law, and had a print out from the relevant website - it was either Which or Gov.uk or something reputable (i.e. not one of my Hacker News comments) * demonstrated that others had the same problem - I found posts on StackOverflow and the Apple forums * that I had used the laptop reasonably - it wasn't damaged in any way, and I had a list of the things for which I used the laptop * I also pointed out that I was a great Apple customer - I had an iPad, an iPhone, and spent a fair bit in the App Store. The rep went to his manager, and came out a few minutes later saying they agreed to fix the issue for free. I'm quite introverted and hate confrontation as well, so my advice would be to pre-plan but without making specific scenarios of what might happen. If you have things in writing, it makes you more confident and it makes the reps a bit more nervous as you have a record of the conversation. Also, definitely keep things impersonal. Make it clear that you're not attacking the rep, or even the company, but just the specific policy which you disagree with. Finally, don't make threats like "I'll post this on social media" or "I'll tell all my friends not to buy from you" as the rep's response will typically be "Go on then". Keep calm, professional and friendly, and a majority of the time the reps will be reasonable and try to help you. Hope that helps!

josu 11y ago

>I did this with Apple when my logic board failed just under two years after buying a Macbook Pro 2009 model. If it was under two years, then it was covered by the warranty. [1] [1] http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroa...

blowski 11y ago
I was referring to Apple's "one year limited warranty" [1] which suggests you are covered only for one year, and must buy AppleCare to get any free maintenance after that period. With the 2 year guarantee, after 6 months you need to establish that the defect existed on the product at the time of purchase. So if the battery stops working after 18 months, you need to establish that it was a faulty battery when you bought it, instead of you damaging the battery through misuse. This even extends beyond 2 years, for the period of time that you would expect the item to work given the price of the product and the manufacturer's claims, but obviously it gets harder to establish the older the product. [1] http://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/mac-english-uk.html http://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/mac-english-uk....