4 ms·

"Finding people who can do that are few and far between" I always wonder what will happen with the next generations of programmers coming out of school - most

by vparikh 11y ago

"Finding people who can do that are few and far between" I always wonder what will happen with the next generations of programmers coming out of school - most of them get started with Python, Ruby or Java. And low level systems programming is mostly an after thought or an annoying class for most students. How will the industry deal with people who can't hack/program at a low level?

InclinedPlane 11y ago
They'll just start hiring from the demoscene.
- paublyrne 11y ago
  Is there still some kind of demoscene? Do people do that stuff still, or were you being ironic? Would love a link (if you're not being ironic)!
  - ddingus 11y ago
    Yes, and it's pretty awesome to follow. http://2015.revision-party.net/ http://2015.revision-party.net/ :) Check out some of the old school demos. They are still squeezing more out of that old 6502 and various custom chips.
  - qbi_ 11y ago
    AFAIK yes, the demoscene is still quite active. There are contests every year, and new demos get written for recent or older hardware altogether. See the recent 8088 mph [1] or more generally, the pouet website [2] [1] http://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all-your-emulators/ http://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all... [2] http://www.pouet.net/ http://www.pouet.net/
  - wingerlang 11y ago
    http://www.pouet.net/ http://www.pouet.net/ seems fairly active and as far as I know (I am not into the scene) it is THE website for demoscene stuff.
  - paublyrne 11y ago
    This is fantastic :) Thanks guys. I had an Amiga 600 when I was 10, but I didn't know anything about demos until much later. Wish I still had it :p
  - InclinedPlane 11y ago
    Indeed, and they achieve some amazing stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWdG413nNkI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWdG413nNkI
krf 11y ago
Salaries for those with low-level systems programming skills will go up, and that should get people motivated to learn what is necessary.
specialp 11y ago
There are still plenty of people out there that can work at the low level, and young people that can work at low level too. I compare it to the beginning of CS to now. In the 70's a computer scientist was familiar with electronics, and a lot of very low level things that would be considered EE now. This was needed in the days where machines were bespoke, and coding was very bare metal. But then people built standardized hardware, and developed standard operating systems that allowed people to work with higher level languages and trust the low level to others. This is still the case. I am familiar with assembly and X86 but I never work with it. I do not need to, there are people that work on that. That does not impair me, it is just that the world of tech has grown much larger and there is a lot to know where nobody can know it all. Some have the feeling that if you cannot work with assembly or write compilers or device drivers you somehow don't have your chops. The skills that are "few and far between" are those wanting to work on a unique system where that knowledge is not directly applicable to today's less bespoke technologies.
- varjag 11y ago
  > That does not impair me Not understanding it, however, would perhaps have impaired you in the long run. Low level programming is easier than many suggest, but at the same time more essential than many would admit. It's not that you have to practice it, but understanding it is important. E.g. I can't help but be alerted of career programmers who have no grasp of basic things like memory pointers. This surprisingly often goes together with not understanding high level concepts like asymptotic complexity, explained away with the same argument that "you don't need it in real life, just call sort()". It's like a plumber who seems to follow the build code doing all pipework inclinations by the book, but fails to recognize the general principle that water flows downwards. It's painting by numbers at best, and religious practice at worst. There is no room for magic if one is serious about their trade.
anta40 11y ago
>> How will the industry deal with people who can't hack/program at a low level? Assembly programming is still being taught as a EE/CS curriculum, so the younger folks know (some) assembly as well. That said, not all programming jobs require a low level programming knowledge. Now why would a Java or Rails programmer have to know ARM assembly, for example? We can leave those things to the experts :D

by vparikh 11y ago

InclinedPlane 11y ago

They'll just start hiring from the demoscene.

paublyrne 11y ago
Is there still some kind of demoscene? Do people do that stuff still, or were you being ironic? Would love a link (if you're not being ironic)!
- ddingus 11y ago
  Yes, and it's pretty awesome to follow. http://2015.revision-party.net/ http://2015.revision-party.net/ :) Check out some of the old school demos. They are still squeezing more out of that old 6502 and various custom chips.
- qbi_ 11y ago
  AFAIK yes, the demoscene is still quite active. There are contests every year, and new demos get written for recent or older hardware altogether. See the recent 8088 mph [1] or more generally, the pouet website [2] [1] http://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all-your-emulators/ http://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all... [2] http://www.pouet.net/ http://www.pouet.net/
- wingerlang 11y ago
  http://www.pouet.net/ http://www.pouet.net/ seems fairly active and as far as I know (I am not into the scene) it is THE website for demoscene stuff.
- paublyrne 11y ago
  This is fantastic :) Thanks guys. I had an Amiga 600 when I was 10, but I didn't know anything about demos until much later. Wish I still had it :p
- InclinedPlane 11y ago
  Indeed, and they achieve some amazing stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWdG413nNkI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWdG413nNkI

krf 11y ago

Salaries for those with low-level systems programming skills will go up, and that should get people motivated to learn what is necessary.

specialp 11y ago

There are still plenty of people out there that can work at the low level, and young people that can work at low level too. I compare it to the beginning of CS to now. In the 70's a computer scientist was familiar with electronics, and a lot of very low level things that would be considered EE now. This was needed in the days where machines were bespoke, and coding was very bare metal. But then people built standardized hardware, and developed standard operating systems that allowed people to work with higher level languages and trust the low level to others. This is still the case. I am familiar with assembly and X86 but I never work with it. I do not need to, there are people that work on that. That does not impair me, it is just that the world of tech has grown much larger and there is a lot to know where nobody can know it all. Some have the feeling that if you cannot work with assembly or write compilers or device drivers you somehow don't have your chops. The skills that are "few and far between" are those wanting to work on a unique system where that knowledge is not directly applicable to today's less bespoke technologies.

varjag 11y ago
> That does not impair me Not understanding it, however, would perhaps have impaired you in the long run. Low level programming is easier than many suggest, but at the same time more essential than many would admit. It's not that you have to practice it, but understanding it is important. E.g. I can't help but be alerted of career programmers who have no grasp of basic things like memory pointers. This surprisingly often goes together with not understanding high level concepts like asymptotic complexity, explained away with the same argument that "you don't need it in real life, just call sort()". It's like a plumber who seems to follow the build code doing all pipework inclinations by the book, but fails to recognize the general principle that water flows downwards. It's painting by numbers at best, and religious practice at worst. There is no room for magic if one is serious about their trade.

anta40 11y ago

>> How will the industry deal with people who can't hack/program at a low level? Assembly programming is still being taught as a EE/CS curriculum, so the younger folks know (some) assembly as well. That said, not all programming jobs require a low level programming knowledge. Now why would a Java or Rails programmer have to know ARM assembly, for example? We can leave those things to the experts :D