4 ms·

What on Earth is a "Real" car? My electric car drives just like a real car - only faster, quieter, and with less pollution. 90% of the time, my car is parked

by edent 11y ago

What on Earth is a "Real" car? My electric car drives just like a real car - only faster, quieter, and with less pollution. 90% of the time, my car is parked at home or work - so it can fully recharge over 3-4 hours. At a rapid charger it will fill up in 30 minutes. I still don't quite see the point of creating hydrogen, shipping or piping it across the country, storing it, and regularly stopping at speciality shops in order to purchase it. We already have a existing electrical infrastructure and the reality is that most people aren't driving 400 miles every single day, so don't need to be constantly refuleing.

dalke 11y ago
What I infer from the article is that a real car has space for luggage, can be driven in cold weather, and is not "too heavy." By those criteria, your electric car appears to be a real car.
toomuchtodo 11y ago
> I still don't quite see the point of creating hydrogen, shipping or piping it across the country, storing it, and regularly stopping at speciality shops in order to purchase it. We already have a existing electrical infrastructure and the reality is that most people aren't driving 400 miles every single day, so don't need to be constantly refuleing. Hydrogen allows the existing supply chain (ie centralized fueling providers) to survive. Electric vehicles causes it/them to die a slow death (think about those 170K gas stations across the US that aren't needed anymore). You'll charge at home, possibly at work if your employer provides it as a perk, or at Superchargers when on the road. EDIT: Hydrogen refueling stations: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/images/facts/fotw523.jpg http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/images/facts/fo... Tesla Superchargers (as of today; Tesla goes live with a new supercharge roughly once a week, although I've seen them move as fast as once per day): http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/images/supercharger/maps/today-northamerica.jpg http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/images/superc...
48snickers 11y ago
> We already have a existing electrical infrastructure and the reality is that most people aren't driving 400 miles every single day, so don't need to be constantly refueling. For the millions of people that rent in high density buildings and work in office buildings, there typically is no charging infrastructure available either at home or work. Sure, the buildings are wired to the grid, but putting enough chargers to support a volume greater than first-adopters is extremely expensive. In the office building I work in (40 stories), there are exactly two chargers to support approximately 1000 parked cars. In the building I live in, there are exactly zero chargers, and there are no wall outlets either. Not an uncommon scenario. I'm not arguing that hydrogen is the solution to this scarcity problem, just that the existing infrastructure isn't adequate either.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Infrastructure costs money. Does this mean it should not be built?
  - 48snickers 11y ago
    I didn't imply that at all. It isn't clear to me _what_ infrastructure should be built, given that there's not a solution that can service everyone currently. I think a case can be made for hydrogen being a better infrastructure play than extending the electric grid. It has some nice qualities, for example the ability (noted in the linked article) to be produced in a hyper-distributed manner.
- edent 11y ago
  I presume these people park somewhere? In the UK my office provides a bog-standard 240V 13A socket - that fully charges me throughout the day. Installing 1,000 normal electrical sockets in a car park is a chore, but it's hardly the construction project of the century.
IgorPartola 11y ago
Just curious, how do you know that your car produces less pollution? The electricity is still generated and transmitted, so it is at least possible that the energy used to power your vehicle is worse for the environment because of its source. Also, did you factor in the impact that mining lithium has on the environment?
- semi-extrinsic 11y ago
  If you look at serious research on this (full life-cycle analysis) you find that a small electric car typically breaks even after ~ 60 000 miles, while something like a Tesla Model S breaks even after ~ 120 000 miles. Those numbers are from memory and for a European electricity mix, but I'm fairly certain they're in the ballpark.
- danhak 11y ago
  > Just curious, how do you know that your car produces less pollution? This data is available: http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_01.html http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_01.html Even in the absolute worst case, energy generation from fossil fuels at a power plant is significantly more efficient than the internal combustion engine, even after taking transmission and charging losses into account. In reality, EVs tend to be sold in areas with high renewable penetration. And about 40% of EV owners have rooftop solar systems. The biggest argument for EVs in general is that they are fuel agnostic. Transitioning to EVs right now means decoupling transportation from fuel, which means the fleet automatically becomes cleaner as we continue to build renewable capacity and phase out fossil fuels.
  - calyth42 11y ago
    http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-car-emissions http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-car-emissions Places like Detroit has coal fired plants.
- edent 11y ago
  As well as the other answers, when I charge at home the electricity comes from my solar panels. Now, we can argue about the polluting nature of creating the panels - but I can turn a day's worth of sunshine into 80 miles of travel with no at-source pollution.
calyth42 11y ago
LOL. You must be living in a pretty happy plug in bubble. Which is great for you. There are people living in apartment buildings, with no options to plug in anything. The best they've got is 110V and probably a talking to by building management if they plug in a car regularly without paying for the extra electricity that isn't billed to their own meter. There are people who gasp work in buildings that don't have plug in infrastructure. We used to have a building that had posts to plug in hybrids and such, with a prioritized parking space, but we're not at that building anymore, and no one could use them anymore. They weren't 220V either, so it's more of a maintenance charge. To get a 400 mile / 640km range, you're pretty much driving a Tesla. Not everyone could cough up the money, or even finance one that easily. And to charge up 400 mi on the mobile 110V on the NEMA 5-15 is a pathetic 133 hours. http://www.teslamotors.com/models-charging#/outlet http://www.teslamotors.com/models-charging#/outlet Or some of us live at places that has actual winters, where temperatures averages -20C, and can feel like worse than -40. Your charge drops like a stone in those situation, when you're out of that temperature ban. Not my words, this is from my friend who don't just own a plug in hybrid (which every weekend he has to find a free charging plug in the city to top up), but also a Li-ion battery engineer. So yeah, you're right, a plug in electric car is a real car, if you're rich enough to at least finance it, rich enough to own a house to put in the wall charger, working in a good comfy job that has the luxury to consider green technology and weather that is basically never cold. i.e. Silicon Valley. Some of us have friends that are 200km or 500km away. Last thing I'd want to do is to push a couple tons of metal and batteries out of the way on a highway.
Zigurd 11y ago
Battery-electric is not practical for long-haul trucking, ships (which contribute a huge amount of pollution attributable to transportation), and heavy equipment. Hydrogen is a versatile, completely clean fuel, and it can be produced and stored in a distributed system without regional transmission monopolies.

by edent 11y ago

dalke 11y ago

What I infer from the article is that a real car has space for luggage, can be driven in cold weather, and is not "too heavy." By those criteria, your electric car appears to be a real car.

toomuchtodo 11y ago

> I still don't quite see the point of creating hydrogen, shipping or piping it across the country, storing it, and regularly stopping at speciality shops in order to purchase it. We already have a existing electrical infrastructure and the reality is that most people aren't driving 400 miles every single day, so don't need to be constantly refuleing. Hydrogen allows the existing supply chain (ie centralized fueling providers) to survive. Electric vehicles causes it/them to die a slow death (think about those 170K gas stations across the US that aren't needed anymore). You'll charge at home, possibly at work if your employer provides it as a perk, or at Superchargers when on the road. EDIT: Hydrogen refueling stations: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/images/facts/fotw523.jpg http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/images/facts/fo... Tesla Superchargers (as of today; Tesla goes live with a new supercharge roughly once a week, although I've seen them move as fast as once per day): http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/images/supercharger/maps/today-northamerica.jpg http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/images/superc...

48snickers 11y ago

> We already have a existing electrical infrastructure and the reality is that most people aren't driving 400 miles every single day, so don't need to be constantly refueling. For the millions of people that rent in high density buildings and work in office buildings, there typically is no charging infrastructure available either at home or work. Sure, the buildings are wired to the grid, but putting enough chargers to support a volume greater than first-adopters is extremely expensive. In the office building I work in (40 stories), there are exactly two chargers to support approximately 1000 parked cars. In the building I live in, there are exactly zero chargers, and there are no wall outlets either. Not an uncommon scenario. I'm not arguing that hydrogen is the solution to this scarcity problem, just that the existing infrastructure isn't adequate either.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
Infrastructure costs money. Does this mean it should not be built?
- 48snickers 11y ago
  I didn't imply that at all. It isn't clear to me _what_ infrastructure should be built, given that there's not a solution that can service everyone currently. I think a case can be made for hydrogen being a better infrastructure play than extending the electric grid. It has some nice qualities, for example the ability (noted in the linked article) to be produced in a hyper-distributed manner.
edent 11y ago
I presume these people park somewhere? In the UK my office provides a bog-standard 240V 13A socket - that fully charges me throughout the day. Installing 1,000 normal electrical sockets in a car park is a chore, but it's hardly the construction project of the century.

IgorPartola 11y ago

Just curious, how do you know that your car produces less pollution? The electricity is still generated and transmitted, so it is at least possible that the energy used to power your vehicle is worse for the environment because of its source. Also, did you factor in the impact that mining lithium has on the environment?

semi-extrinsic 11y ago
If you look at serious research on this (full life-cycle analysis) you find that a small electric car typically breaks even after ~ 60 000 miles, while something like a Tesla Model S breaks even after ~ 120 000 miles. Those numbers are from memory and for a European electricity mix, but I'm fairly certain they're in the ballpark.
danhak 11y ago
> Just curious, how do you know that your car produces less pollution? This data is available: http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_01.html http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_01.html Even in the absolute worst case, energy generation from fossil fuels at a power plant is significantly more efficient than the internal combustion engine, even after taking transmission and charging losses into account. In reality, EVs tend to be sold in areas with high renewable penetration. And about 40% of EV owners have rooftop solar systems. The biggest argument for EVs in general is that they are fuel agnostic. Transitioning to EVs right now means decoupling transportation from fuel, which means the fleet automatically becomes cleaner as we continue to build renewable capacity and phase out fossil fuels.
- calyth42 11y ago
  http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-car-emissions http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-car-emissions Places like Detroit has coal fired plants.
edent 11y ago
As well as the other answers, when I charge at home the electricity comes from my solar panels. Now, we can argue about the polluting nature of creating the panels - but I can turn a day's worth of sunshine into 80 miles of travel with no at-source pollution.

calyth42 11y ago

LOL. You must be living in a pretty happy plug in bubble. Which is great for you. There are people living in apartment buildings, with no options to plug in anything. The best they've got is 110V and probably a talking to by building management if they plug in a car regularly without paying for the extra electricity that isn't billed to their own meter. There are people who gasp work in buildings that don't have plug in infrastructure. We used to have a building that had posts to plug in hybrids and such, with a prioritized parking space, but we're not at that building anymore, and no one could use them anymore. They weren't 220V either, so it's more of a maintenance charge. To get a 400 mile / 640km range, you're pretty much driving a Tesla. Not everyone could cough up the money, or even finance one that easily. And to charge up 400 mi on the mobile 110V on the NEMA 5-15 is a pathetic 133 hours. http://www.teslamotors.com/models-charging#/outlet http://www.teslamotors.com/models-charging#/outlet Or some of us live at places that has actual winters, where temperatures averages -20C, and can feel like worse than -40. Your charge drops like a stone in those situation, when you're out of that temperature ban. Not my words, this is from my friend who don't just own a plug in hybrid (which every weekend he has to find a free charging plug in the city to top up), but also a Li-ion battery engineer. So yeah, you're right, a plug in electric car is a real car, if you're rich enough to at least finance it, rich enough to own a house to put in the wall charger, working in a good comfy job that has the luxury to consider green technology and weather that is basically never cold. i.e. Silicon Valley. Some of us have friends that are 200km or 500km away. Last thing I'd want to do is to push a couple tons of metal and batteries out of the way on a highway.

Zigurd 11y ago

Battery-electric is not practical for long-haul trucking, ships (which contribute a huge amount of pollution attributable to transportation), and heavy equipment. Hydrogen is a versatile, completely clean fuel, and it can be produced and stored in a distributed system without regional transmission monopolies.