4 ms·

It should be noted that this is a very limited ruling. Only the owner can modify the car, and you can't go to a mechanic or third party to modify it (or inspect

by yasth 11y ago

It should be noted that this is a very limited ruling. Only the owner can modify the car, and you can't go to a mechanic or third party to modify it (or inspect it), which will greatly restrict the application. Also this doesn't apply to Entertainment or Telemetrics portions. So your car could be straight up spying on you, or your manufacturer can leave unpatched security holes in your "Entertainment" system (which has already been used ( http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/systems/jeep-hacking-101 http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/syst...) to remotely hack your car), and there is nothing you can legally do. You can't even deeply look into the system to find such vulnerabilities. I mean a win is a win, but this isn't as big as one would hope.

randyrand 11y ago
Fortunateyly the software in your 2015 honda civic is nearly or completely identical to all other 2015 honda civics, though. I agree that its unfortunate, but being able to inspect the software in your car is nearly as good as being able to inspect other's or have other's inspect yours if you have the same make and year.
- yasth 11y ago
  Well there is probably a pretty big difference between the normal civic, the hybrid civic, and the natural gas civic, but I don't think there will be lots of per car model/line differences, just that the inability to contract out things means that modification is limited to technical minded people (and no, artful dodges like "The mechanic will set it up, and the owner can push the button" are unlikely to fly). Also it throws hassles at researchers, some cars have a lot of different combinations of things that might change the ECU software from engine choices to different model lines (Sport models often have different tunings) to even the type of gearbox (Manuals have different tuning than automatics which are different than CVTs, and advanced CVTs actually communicate with the ECU in complex ways that are only activated on the higher trims). No one is going to actually own 8 different Honda Accords just to legally work on all the firmwares. While I have no doubt that a lot of shortcutting will occur (i.e. people will dump the firmware and post it, and if and only if an issue is found will researchers bother to become nominal "owner" of a particular model) it adds a hassle, and a tinge of illegality which is completely unwarranted.
  - robryk 11y ago
    > and no, artful dodges like "The mechanic will set it up, and the owner can push the button" are unlikely to fly What about selling/renting devices that the owner connects in some obvious way and pushes a button?
gknoy 11y ago
I wonder if you could sell your car to the inspector, let them inspect it, and then buy it back.
- rnovak 11y ago
  Maybe a "Mechanic's Lien" could work for that[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanic%27s_lien https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanic%27s_lien
bcook 11y ago
ECU tweakers are already very popular with diesel vehicles. Something like that seems legal even under these restrictions. Buy/rent a device to mod your own vehicle.
- StavrosK 11y ago
  Huh, I've never seen those before, and I own a diesel car. Are they worth it? What do the tweakers do that the entire Mercedes crew couldn't?
  - jnbiche 11y ago
    > What do the tweakers do that the entire Mercedes crew couldn't? Openly flout emissions standards.
    - StavrosK 11y ago
      Interesting, thanks.
      - selimthegrim 11y ago
        "Malone" is a popular tune brand
    - paulmlewis 11y ago
      I'm sure there's some irony in that sentiment ;-) Aside from the VW thing I think pretty much all diesels are above emissions standards in open road testing.
      - ams6110 11y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Coal Popular among a subset of diesel pickup truck owners.
jakeogh 11y ago
It would be an important case. As you note it's on the same bus and meaningless to "be able" to inspect the car control system without looking at it. The solution is for people to vote with their buys.

by yasth 11y ago

randyrand 11y ago

Fortunateyly the software in your 2015 honda civic is nearly or completely identical to all other 2015 honda civics, though. I agree that its unfortunate, but being able to inspect the software in your car is nearly as good as being able to inspect other's or have other's inspect yours if you have the same make and year.

yasth 11y ago
Well there is probably a pretty big difference between the normal civic, the hybrid civic, and the natural gas civic, but I don't think there will be lots of per car model/line differences, just that the inability to contract out things means that modification is limited to technical minded people (and no, artful dodges like "The mechanic will set it up, and the owner can push the button" are unlikely to fly). Also it throws hassles at researchers, some cars have a lot of different combinations of things that might change the ECU software from engine choices to different model lines (Sport models often have different tunings) to even the type of gearbox (Manuals have different tuning than automatics which are different than CVTs, and advanced CVTs actually communicate with the ECU in complex ways that are only activated on the higher trims). No one is going to actually own 8 different Honda Accords just to legally work on all the firmwares. While I have no doubt that a lot of shortcutting will occur (i.e. people will dump the firmware and post it, and if and only if an issue is found will researchers bother to become nominal "owner" of a particular model) it adds a hassle, and a tinge of illegality which is completely unwarranted.
- robryk 11y ago
  > and no, artful dodges like "The mechanic will set it up, and the owner can push the button" are unlikely to fly What about selling/renting devices that the owner connects in some obvious way and pushes a button?

gknoy 11y ago

I wonder if you could sell your car to the inspector, let them inspect it, and then buy it back.

rnovak 11y ago
Maybe a "Mechanic's Lien" could work for that[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanic%27s_lien https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanic%27s_lien

bcook 11y ago

ECU tweakers are already very popular with diesel vehicles. Something like that seems legal even under these restrictions. Buy/rent a device to mod your own vehicle.

StavrosK 11y ago
Huh, I've never seen those before, and I own a diesel car. Are they worth it? What do the tweakers do that the entire Mercedes crew couldn't?
- jnbiche 11y ago
  > What do the tweakers do that the entire Mercedes crew couldn't? Openly flout emissions standards.
  - StavrosK 11y ago
    Interesting, thanks.
    - selimthegrim 11y ago
      "Malone" is a popular tune brand
  - paulmlewis 11y ago
    I'm sure there's some irony in that sentiment ;-) Aside from the VW thing I think pretty much all diesels are above emissions standards in open road testing.
    - ams6110 11y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Coal Popular among a subset of diesel pickup truck owners.

jakeogh 11y ago

It would be an important case. As you note it's on the same bus and meaningless to "be able" to inspect the car control system without looking at it. The solution is for people to vote with their buys.