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One movie I've always had a hard time categorizing is Groundhog Day. I went through the 37 plots listed and still don't see a good match. Does achieving enligh

One movie I've always had a hard time categorizing is Groundhog Day. I went through the 37 plots listed and still don't see a good match. Does achieving enlightenment count as a plot?

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Sure, the basic plots begin to elude anything remotely surrealistic or avant-garde. Try similarly categorizing the likes of Luis Buñuel, Krzysztof Kieślowski, Stan Brakhage, Catherine Breillat, or hell, even Michael Haneke.
Jtsummers 11y ago
Perhaps a combination of "Possessed of an ambition" (his egotistical behavior and treatment of others, producing generally negative situations that he doesn't realize are negative because he can't see beyond himself) combined with "Miracle of God" (the opportunity to redeem himself and finally become the best man he can be).
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  "Possessed of an ambition" is a weak attempt at listing a basic plot -- you can phrase this equivalently as "having a goal", and it will obviously be present multiple times over in any story at all. Phil has several ambitions in Groundhog Day, some more closely related to each other than others: 1. get out of Punxsatawney (changes over the course of the film) 2. stop the repetition 3. sleep with Rita (when he finally gets this, the repetition stops!) 4. optimize the day (3) and (4) are both given quite a lot of screen time and plot focus; (2) is the source of many jokes. Some other thoughts on the list: I was surprised to see "Struggle against God" categorized under DISASTROUS SITUATIONS PRECIPITATED WITH CRIMINAL INTENT. I would have put it under TRAGIC SITUATIONS OVER WHICH THE VICTIM HAS NO CONTROL. "Possessed of an ambition", interpreted as a goal, includes a lot of the other elements (consider "love's obstacles"). The list makes a three-way distinction between "enmity between kinsmen", "vengeance", and "kindred avenged against kindred". A better-thought-out list couldn't do this.
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    "Struggle against God" (more generalized to any higher power, I suppose) is a choice if it's precipitated with criminal intent. It's not that I'm running from my fate for killing my wife because God has it out for me. I chose to kill my wife, and now God has it out for me. The cause is my own decision and follow through. It's also probably assumed, in this list, that the story's main character would be the loser in this struggle.
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      Hill's list is plagiarized nearly in whole from Georges Polti's list visible at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty-Six_Dramatic_Situations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty-Six_Dramatic_Situat... . The original comes with definitions, so we can see that "struggle against God" involves two characters, a Mortal and an Immortal, who "enter a conflict". Obvious exemplars in Greek mythology would be Hercules being born (and thereby coming into conflict with Hera), or Odysseus killing Polyphemus, who was going to eat him (and thereby coming into conflict with Poseidon, who, unknown to Odysseus, was Polyphemus' father). Where's the criminal intent? To the earlier discussion, it's probably worth noting that Polti's plot 30, "Ambition" involves a person, an object, and an adversary; the person seeks the object and is opposed by the adversary. Not applicable to Groundhog Day.
      - Retric 11y ago
        Note, these are dramatic situations not plots. Self improvement in not dramatic. So, stealing the money bag was dramatic, pretending to be an old classmate was comedic not dramatic. Self sacrifice for an ideal was dramatic in the case of catching the kid who fell from a tree, but also played for laughs.
        thaumasiotes 11y ago
        > Note, these are dramatic situations not plots. Self improvement in not dramatic. Rocky was received pretty well.
justathrow2k 11y ago
I think you could describe Groundhog Day as the sum of a few of those plots listed.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  Yeah. Keeping in mind that this is the list of basic plots. Most stories will involve some combination of these, perhaps without a strong overarching basic plot to use as its primary category.
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    I'd go with for Groundhog Day: - (3) A miracle of god - (5) Love's obstacles - (14) Pursuit - (23) Struggle against god "God" being the situation he find himself in (both the miracle of it, and the struggle), pursuit being his overall progress, and of course the "main" love plot. Depends how literally you take "god" for if those fit or not.
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      Definition of "conflict with a god" from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty-Six_Dramatic_Situations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty-Six_Dramatic_Situat... , the source of the list in OP: - a Mortal; an Immortal - The Mortal and the Immortal enter a conflict. There's no way to make Groundhog Day fit this. Love's obstacles doesn't fit either: 28. Obstacles to love - two Lovers; an Obstacle - Two Lovers face an Obstacle together. Here's "pursuit": 5. Pursuit - punishment; a fugitive - the fugitive flees punishment for a misunderstood conflict. Example: Les Misérables "A miracle of God" is the only plot Hill didn't lift from Polti, so I guess it could be anything.
      - meric 11y ago
        a Mortal; an Immortal That looks like it. The world around him is "immortal", and he was a "mortal" trapped in the "immortal" world. In the movie that is metaphorically represented by the day repeating, seemingly forever. The more the "mortal" tries to fight things, the further he is away from freedom. It was only by cooperating with the world he was finally free.
stonogo 11y ago
The classical Christian interpretation of enlightenment is (3) A miracle of God. This tells me the counterpoint to Groundhog Day is any Michael Bay movie, which are all (23) Struggle against God.
Jtsummers 11y ago
A second reply, because this is about the movie Groundhog Day and not the topic at hand. Something that really bugs me about most people's references to the movie is that they grossly miss the point. When most people reference it they refer to something about their dull repetitive life, or being stuck in a rut. But that's not what happens in the movie. He literally experiences the same thing for hundreds of days to hundreds of years (depending on interpretation). But something happens, he realizes the numerous opportunities present in this same, repeated, "uneventful" day. Sure, the daily grind of wake, commute, work, commute, dinner, TV, sleep, repeat is dull and repetitive. But unlike Phil, we don't have an infinite number of times to do this before we learn our lesson and change our approach. We get 100 years on the outside, 60 productive years for most of us. Even if you're doing the same thing each day, how do you spend the rest of your time? If it's living for the weekend, that's 5 evenings a week you've wasted. Fill it with time with family, friends, learning, hobbies, something. Become the best person you can be, because one day the repetition will end. What will you have to show for it? Will you have just worked yourself to death and memorized every line of Star Wars, or will you be making ice sculptures with a chainsaw?
- david-given 11y ago
  Why do I need to show anything for it? That's a serious question; if I like working and enjoy memorising Star Wars, why shouldn't I do that? Why can't I focus my life around the things I enjoy doing, rather than concentrating on all the things which I could be doing (but can't do, because of any number of reasons) and end up miserable and feeling like I'm wasting my life?
  - numbsafari 11y ago
    Put another way... Will you have just worked yourself to death making ice sculptures with a chainsaw, or will you memorize every line of Star Wars?
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    If that's what you enjoy, that's fine. But many people don't really enjoy their work, it's just work. What they enjoy is done on the weekends or holidays. How many people waste 2 or 3 hours commuting each day, time away from the family they ostensibly want to be with, for work, and then lament, when their children are grown, missing out on those years? If Star Wars and your job are the things you want to be doing, do them. That's fantastic. If dancing or drawing or rebuilding a jeep are what you want to do, but can't because of work, find some other job or some better way to do your current job. And don't feel beholden to others to do things or enjoy things because that's what they expect of you. I fucking hate the Star * franchises (or, more accurately, what they've become and their fanbases). But I work with people who love them (in their current incarnations). But in this field (computer programming), everyone thinks I'm weird. Same with video games, I enjoy them to an extent, but I've played them enough to know that I want to do other things. OTOH, don't listen to me if that's what you enjoy and I tell you to stop. If it's what you want to do, do it. But if it's what you want to do, and something in your life is holding you back that you want to change (as opposed to certain obligations, like an SO, that you shouldn't or don't want to change), then find a way to get that time back. EDIT: Hell. If your work and Star Wars memorization are what you really want. Make that commute work for you. Ride a train and get more work done. Or listen to the movies on your drive. I'm doing that with my current attempt at learning Italian. That's one of the ways people miss the point. The time is there for you to do many (though not all) of the things you want to do now, you just have to realize it and take it back. EDIT Further: And I guess, with regard to having something to "show" for it. At the end of your life, do you think that you will be happy with how you led it? Did you achieve all, most or even some of your goals? It's not just a result to show to others, but also an internal understanding of where you are and what you have achieved (or not) and why. If I get married and have kids, I probably won't achieve most of the travel I want to in this lifetime. But I'll probably be happy to have made that trade. But if I can't achieve that goal because I decided to work until I was 70, then, for me, that will have been a failure. So I've set myself on a course to avoid that.
hyperion2010 11y ago
Becoming a truly good person. Struggle against ones lesser self. edit: Existential doubt. Struggle against nihilism.
Steko 11y ago
Situation Number Five - Love's Obstacles Subplot (f) - a union of lovers prevented by a lack of congeniality between them
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
scardine 11y ago
For me it is the Rebirth: during the course of the story, an important event forces the main character to change their ways, often making them a better person. It is also a Comedy: light and humorous character with a happy or cheerful ending; a dramatic work in which the central motif is the triumph over adverse circumstance, resulting in a successful or happy conclusion. But these are from "The Seven Basic Plots" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots)
GPGPU 11y ago
Groundhog day is a "boy gets girl" plot (Boy meets girl, boy redeems himself to win her approval, boy gets girl).
wj 11y ago
Two Hollywood screenwriters really dove down into Groundhog Day and is a discussion you might find insightful: http://johnaugust.com/2014/scriptnotes-ep-133-groundhog-day-transcript http://johnaugust.com/2014/scriptnotes-ep-133-groundhog-day-...

One movie I've always had a hard time categorizing is Groundhog Day. I went through the 37 plots listed and still don't see a good match. Does achieving enlightenment count as a plot?

vezzy-fnord 11y ago

Sure, the basic plots begin to elude anything remotely surrealistic or avant-garde. Try similarly categorizing the likes of Luis Buñuel, Krzysztof Kieślowski, Stan Brakhage, Catherine Breillat, or hell, even Michael Haneke.

Jtsummers 11y ago

Perhaps a combination of "Possessed of an ambition" (his egotistical behavior and treatment of others, producing generally negative situations that he doesn't realize are negative because he can't see beyond himself) combined with "Miracle of God" (the opportunity to redeem himself and finally become the best man he can be).

thaumasiotes 11y ago
"Possessed of an ambition" is a weak attempt at listing a basic plot -- you can phrase this equivalently as "having a goal", and it will obviously be present multiple times over in any story at all. Phil has several ambitions in Groundhog Day, some more closely related to each other than others: 1. get out of Punxsatawney (changes over the course of the film) 2. stop the repetition 3. sleep with Rita (when he finally gets this, the repetition stops!) 4. optimize the day (3) and (4) are both given quite a lot of screen time and plot focus; (2) is the source of many jokes. Some other thoughts on the list: I was surprised to see "Struggle against God" categorized under DISASTROUS SITUATIONS PRECIPITATED WITH CRIMINAL INTENT. I would have put it under TRAGIC SITUATIONS OVER WHICH THE VICTIM HAS NO CONTROL. "Possessed of an ambition", interpreted as a goal, includes a lot of the other elements (consider "love's obstacles"). The list makes a three-way distinction between "enmity between kinsmen", "vengeance", and "kindred avenged against kindred". A better-thought-out list couldn't do this.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  "Struggle against God" (more generalized to any higher power, I suppose) is a choice if it's precipitated with criminal intent. It's not that I'm running from my fate for killing my wife because God has it out for me. I chose to kill my wife, and now God has it out for me. The cause is my own decision and follow through. It's also probably assumed, in this list, that the story's main character would be the loser in this struggle.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    Hill's list is plagiarized nearly in whole from Georges Polti's list visible at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty-Six_Dramatic_Situations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty-Six_Dramatic_Situat... . The original comes with definitions, so we can see that "struggle against God" involves two characters, a Mortal and an Immortal, who "enter a conflict". Obvious exemplars in Greek mythology would be Hercules being born (and thereby coming into conflict with Hera), or Odysseus killing Polyphemus, who was going to eat him (and thereby coming into conflict with Poseidon, who, unknown to Odysseus, was Polyphemus' father). Where's the criminal intent? To the earlier discussion, it's probably worth noting that Polti's plot 30, "Ambition" involves a person, an object, and an adversary; the person seeks the object and is opposed by the adversary. Not applicable to Groundhog Day.
    - Retric 11y ago
      Note, these are dramatic situations not plots. Self improvement in not dramatic. So, stealing the money bag was dramatic, pretending to be an old classmate was comedic not dramatic. Self sacrifice for an ideal was dramatic in the case of catching the kid who fell from a tree, but also played for laughs.
      - thaumasiotes 11y ago
        > Note, these are dramatic situations not plots. Self improvement in not dramatic. Rocky was received pretty well.

justathrow2k 11y ago

I think you could describe Groundhog Day as the sum of a few of those plots listed.

Jtsummers 11y ago
Yeah. Keeping in mind that this is the list of basic plots. Most stories will involve some combination of these, perhaps without a strong overarching basic plot to use as its primary category.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  I'd go with for Groundhog Day: - (3) A miracle of god - (5) Love's obstacles - (14) Pursuit - (23) Struggle against god "God" being the situation he find himself in (both the miracle of it, and the struggle), pursuit being his overall progress, and of course the "main" love plot. Depends how literally you take "god" for if those fit or not.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    Definition of "conflict with a god" from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty-Six_Dramatic_Situations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty-Six_Dramatic_Situat... , the source of the list in OP: - a Mortal; an Immortal - The Mortal and the Immortal enter a conflict. There's no way to make Groundhog Day fit this. Love's obstacles doesn't fit either: 28. Obstacles to love - two Lovers; an Obstacle - Two Lovers face an Obstacle together. Here's "pursuit": 5. Pursuit - punishment; a fugitive - the fugitive flees punishment for a misunderstood conflict. Example: Les Misérables "A miracle of God" is the only plot Hill didn't lift from Polti, so I guess it could be anything.
    - meric 11y ago
      a Mortal; an Immortal That looks like it. The world around him is "immortal", and he was a "mortal" trapped in the "immortal" world. In the movie that is metaphorically represented by the day repeating, seemingly forever. The more the "mortal" tries to fight things, the further he is away from freedom. It was only by cooperating with the world he was finally free.

stonogo 11y ago

The classical Christian interpretation of enlightenment is (3) A miracle of God. This tells me the counterpoint to Groundhog Day is any Michael Bay movie, which are all (23) Struggle against God.

Jtsummers 11y ago

A second reply, because this is about the movie Groundhog Day and not the topic at hand. Something that really bugs me about most people's references to the movie is that they grossly miss the point. When most people reference it they refer to something about their dull repetitive life, or being stuck in a rut. But that's not what happens in the movie. He literally experiences the same thing for hundreds of days to hundreds of years (depending on interpretation). But something happens, he realizes the numerous opportunities present in this same, repeated, "uneventful" day. Sure, the daily grind of wake, commute, work, commute, dinner, TV, sleep, repeat is dull and repetitive. But unlike Phil, we don't have an infinite number of times to do this before we learn our lesson and change our approach. We get 100 years on the outside, 60 productive years for most of us. Even if you're doing the same thing each day, how do you spend the rest of your time? If it's living for the weekend, that's 5 evenings a week you've wasted. Fill it with time with family, friends, learning, hobbies, something. Become the best person you can be, because one day the repetition will end. What will you have to show for it? Will you have just worked yourself to death and memorized every line of Star Wars, or will you be making ice sculptures with a chainsaw?

david-given 11y ago
Why do I need to show anything for it? That's a serious question; if I like working and enjoy memorising Star Wars, why shouldn't I do that? Why can't I focus my life around the things I enjoy doing, rather than concentrating on all the things which I could be doing (but can't do, because of any number of reasons) and end up miserable and feeling like I'm wasting my life?
- numbsafari 11y ago
  Put another way... Will you have just worked yourself to death making ice sculptures with a chainsaw, or will you memorize every line of Star Wars?
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  If that's what you enjoy, that's fine. But many people don't really enjoy their work, it's just work. What they enjoy is done on the weekends or holidays. How many people waste 2 or 3 hours commuting each day, time away from the family they ostensibly want to be with, for work, and then lament, when their children are grown, missing out on those years? If Star Wars and your job are the things you want to be doing, do them. That's fantastic. If dancing or drawing or rebuilding a jeep are what you want to do, but can't because of work, find some other job or some better way to do your current job. And don't feel beholden to others to do things or enjoy things because that's what they expect of you. I fucking hate the Star * franchises (or, more accurately, what they've become and their fanbases). But I work with people who love them (in their current incarnations). But in this field (computer programming), everyone thinks I'm weird. Same with video games, I enjoy them to an extent, but I've played them enough to know that I want to do other things. OTOH, don't listen to me if that's what you enjoy and I tell you to stop. If it's what you want to do, do it. But if it's what you want to do, and something in your life is holding you back that you want to change (as opposed to certain obligations, like an SO, that you shouldn't or don't want to change), then find a way to get that time back. EDIT: Hell. If your work and Star Wars memorization are what you really want. Make that commute work for you. Ride a train and get more work done. Or listen to the movies on your drive. I'm doing that with my current attempt at learning Italian. That's one of the ways people miss the point. The time is there for you to do many (though not all) of the things you want to do now, you just have to realize it and take it back. EDIT Further: And I guess, with regard to having something to "show" for it. At the end of your life, do you think that you will be happy with how you led it? Did you achieve all, most or even some of your goals? It's not just a result to show to others, but also an internal understanding of where you are and what you have achieved (or not) and why. If I get married and have kids, I probably won't achieve most of the travel I want to in this lifetime. But I'll probably be happy to have made that trade. But if I can't achieve that goal because I decided to work until I was 70, then, for me, that will have been a failure. So I've set myself on a course to avoid that.

hyperion2010 11y ago

Becoming a truly good person. Struggle against ones lesser self. edit: Existential doubt. Struggle against nihilism.

Steko 11y ago

Situation Number Five - Love's Obstacles Subplot (f) - a union of lovers prevented by a lack of congeniality between them

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

scardine 11y ago

For me it is the Rebirth: during the course of the story, an important event forces the main character to change their ways, often making them a better person. It is also a Comedy: light and humorous character with a happy or cheerful ending; a dramatic work in which the central motif is the triumph over adverse circumstance, resulting in a successful or happy conclusion. But these are from "The Seven Basic Plots" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots)

GPGPU 11y ago

Groundhog day is a "boy gets girl" plot (Boy meets girl, boy redeems himself to win her approval, boy gets girl).

wj 11y ago

Two Hollywood screenwriters really dove down into Groundhog Day and is a discussion you might find insightful: http://johnaugust.com/2014/scriptnotes-ep-133-groundhog-day-transcript http://johnaugust.com/2014/scriptnotes-ep-133-groundhog-day-...