4 ms·

Says the BBC, from a country that silently introduced a country-wide firewall of it's own for protecting people from porn, extremists and pedophiles. https://w

by pmlnr 11y ago

Says the BBC, from a country that silently introduced a country-wide firewall of it's own for protecting people from porn, extremists and pedophiles. https://www.openrightsgroup.org/campaigns/censorship https://www.openrightsgroup.org/campaigns/censorship "Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her." I know there are issues in China, but maybe fix our own problems first. P.S.: I've been to China, and I've seen people using tech even in remote places with a much higher causality for solving language barriers for example, compared to Western nations. Also, they don't give a bit about copyright ideas, so no, internet censorship is definitely not killing innovation there. Slowing it down a littlebit, maybe, but not killing it.

berntb 11y ago
The British case seems to be a democratic country where a moral panic influenced policies similar to 1970s complaints about "satanic" hard rock? It is a bit hard to seriously compare that with a dictatorship trying to control the information to the population...
sharetea 11y ago
1.) Association fallacy (guilt by association) – arguing that because two things share a property they are the same 2.) "Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her." - pretty sure journalism doesn't work that way 3.) you didn't give any proof supporting the fact that innovation isn't being killed in China. Since you live in UK, what Chinese Brand/Product innovation do you see in stores in UK?
- pmlnr 11y ago
  1, nope, the statement was that there's internet censorship working in the 'free' internet land as well 2, I was trying to point out that maybe there could have been some articles about the issues in UK/EU as well with similat tones, not stating that this is for our protection. 3, Xiaomi, Oppo and similar, for example has some pretty good stuff on Amazon, and since Amazon is a massive market share in the UK, we can state, you have access, and the products are usually either surprisingly cheaper and/or better than the 'originals'. ( Another example could be the MIUI ROM, which was probably the best ROM for the HTC Desire; also Chinese. )
studentrob 11y ago
There's a pretty big difference between blocking porn and blocking popular services used for communication by much of the rest of the world. I don't see a problem with one journalist or media outlet criticizing another country's policies. Given free access to information, people should be able to decide for themselves. The question is, when will Chinese citizens earn the right to openly criticize their government without fear of being locked up?
- pmlnr 11y ago
  "blocking popular services used for communication by much of the rest of the world" Uhm... Google and Facebook shares more or less the same userbase and that in numbers ( I mean real users, real people ) is comparable to the people in China alone, so 'popular services used for communication by much of the rest of the world' might be a bit of an overstatement. (We also might just all be much happier without Facebook and less locked-in without Google but that's a private opinion.) Github is indeed an issue, that really should not be blocked. EDIT As for criticizing the government... the Chinese government had made truly significant changes starting from the 90s. It's a slow progress, yes, and they do sacrifice certain rights of free speech in order to prevent chaos and wars. I believe this change is slowly on it's way, but this takes a really, really long time. Let me tell a small story here. The company I work for is trying to establish some business in China but so far, they've failed. One of the reasons is that people there doesn't seem to trust reviews online, if it's from unknown origin. Known origin is someone they actually know, and they do trust the word and recommendation of those. This is exactly the environment I was raised in, in Eastern Europe - you don't trust what you don't know. Believe it or not, this is a certain kind of criticism; questioning everything coming from the authorities. Yes, it is very different from the usual Western approach, and requires a different mindset; a mindset that is trying to avoid conflict and make the best out of the situation without upsetting anyone. Criticism can happen on various levels, from drawing instigating pictures to a gentle smile, and I would not underestimate the power of the latter either.
  - studentrob 11y ago
    I disagree. Granting free speech does not mean war. It means a better economy. China's economy is plateauing. It will not get a major boost from, for example, buying US patents en masse. China needs more homemade innovation. As you say, they will get the best innovation from people they trust. They can get even more of that from people who feel free to think, communicate and express themselves. It's currently easier to do all that outside China than it is within. Therefore the brightest leave and other countries benefit from China's cream of the crop. There are plenty of examples of other Asian countries which have the same trust issues you mention and also have free speech. They have not descended into war. Their economies have improved. Are there disputes that play out on TV and in newspapers? Yes. Are people embarrassed? Yes. Is it the end of the world? No.
DanBC 11y ago
It wasn't silent, it is optional. You'd have a stronger point if you mentioned the torrent sites that get blocked by court order - these at least go in front of a judge, but they're not optional for the relevant ISPs. (but easy to bypass for users.) Comparing an optional firewall with Chinese oppression is weird.
- pmlnr 11y ago
  Weird? Why would it be? How do you know if something is filtered out by the ISP level filtering in the UK? What prevents them of filtering out anything they consider harmful? How do you know if opt-out is actually working for everything? No, it's not weird at all. At least China has the spine to admit it.
pmlnr 11y ago
I can't edit my entry anymore, but please be able to read between the lines. "protecting people from porn, extremists and pedophiles." That sounds great, but who decides what falls under extreme? For example, in the eyes of a religion, every other religion can be considered extreme content. -- Also: yes, censorship is bad and yes, there should be no such thing, but there are worse things than that.
tuxracer 11y ago
The false equivalence here is off the charts. Let's compare: http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ipn=r&ct=201326592&cl=2&lm=-1&st=-1&fm=detail&fr=&sf=1&fmq=1445991506423_R&pv=&ic=0&nc=1&z=&se=&showtab=0&fb=0&width=&height=&face=0&istype=2&ie=utf-8&word=%E7%8E%8B%E7%BB%B4%E6%9E%97 http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ipn=r&ct=2... to https://www.google.com.hk/search?q=%E7%8E%8B%E7%BB%B4%E6%9E%97&biw=1181&bih=577&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIydXHmvLjyAIVTDeICh19OASU https://www.google.com.hk/search?q=%E7%8E%8B%E7%BB%B4%E6%9E%...

by pmlnr 11y ago

berntb 11y ago

The British case seems to be a democratic country where a moral panic influenced policies similar to 1970s complaints about "satanic" hard rock? It is a bit hard to seriously compare that with a dictatorship trying to control the information to the population...

sharetea 11y ago

1.) Association fallacy (guilt by association) – arguing that because two things share a property they are the same 2.) "Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her." - pretty sure journalism doesn't work that way 3.) you didn't give any proof supporting the fact that innovation isn't being killed in China. Since you live in UK, what Chinese Brand/Product innovation do you see in stores in UK?

pmlnr 11y ago
1, nope, the statement was that there's internet censorship working in the 'free' internet land as well 2, I was trying to point out that maybe there could have been some articles about the issues in UK/EU as well with similat tones, not stating that this is for our protection. 3, Xiaomi, Oppo and similar, for example has some pretty good stuff on Amazon, and since Amazon is a massive market share in the UK, we can state, you have access, and the products are usually either surprisingly cheaper and/or better than the 'originals'. ( Another example could be the MIUI ROM, which was probably the best ROM for the HTC Desire; also Chinese. )

studentrob 11y ago

There's a pretty big difference between blocking porn and blocking popular services used for communication by much of the rest of the world. I don't see a problem with one journalist or media outlet criticizing another country's policies. Given free access to information, people should be able to decide for themselves. The question is, when will Chinese citizens earn the right to openly criticize their government without fear of being locked up?

pmlnr 11y ago
"blocking popular services used for communication by much of the rest of the world" Uhm... Google and Facebook shares more or less the same userbase and that in numbers ( I mean real users, real people ) is comparable to the people in China alone, so 'popular services used for communication by much of the rest of the world' might be a bit of an overstatement. (We also might just all be much happier without Facebook and less locked-in without Google but that's a private opinion.) Github is indeed an issue, that really should not be blocked. EDIT As for criticizing the government... the Chinese government had made truly significant changes starting from the 90s. It's a slow progress, yes, and they do sacrifice certain rights of free speech in order to prevent chaos and wars. I believe this change is slowly on it's way, but this takes a really, really long time. Let me tell a small story here. The company I work for is trying to establish some business in China but so far, they've failed. One of the reasons is that people there doesn't seem to trust reviews online, if it's from unknown origin. Known origin is someone they actually know, and they do trust the word and recommendation of those. This is exactly the environment I was raised in, in Eastern Europe - you don't trust what you don't know. Believe it or not, this is a certain kind of criticism; questioning everything coming from the authorities. Yes, it is very different from the usual Western approach, and requires a different mindset; a mindset that is trying to avoid conflict and make the best out of the situation without upsetting anyone. Criticism can happen on various levels, from drawing instigating pictures to a gentle smile, and I would not underestimate the power of the latter either.
- studentrob 11y ago
  I disagree. Granting free speech does not mean war. It means a better economy. China's economy is plateauing. It will not get a major boost from, for example, buying US patents en masse. China needs more homemade innovation. As you say, they will get the best innovation from people they trust. They can get even more of that from people who feel free to think, communicate and express themselves. It's currently easier to do all that outside China than it is within. Therefore the brightest leave and other countries benefit from China's cream of the crop. There are plenty of examples of other Asian countries which have the same trust issues you mention and also have free speech. They have not descended into war. Their economies have improved. Are there disputes that play out on TV and in newspapers? Yes. Are people embarrassed? Yes. Is it the end of the world? No.

DanBC 11y ago

It wasn't silent, it is optional. You'd have a stronger point if you mentioned the torrent sites that get blocked by court order - these at least go in front of a judge, but they're not optional for the relevant ISPs. (but easy to bypass for users.) Comparing an optional firewall with Chinese oppression is weird.

pmlnr 11y ago
Weird? Why would it be? How do you know if something is filtered out by the ISP level filtering in the UK? What prevents them of filtering out anything they consider harmful? How do you know if opt-out is actually working for everything? No, it's not weird at all. At least China has the spine to admit it.

pmlnr 11y ago

I can't edit my entry anymore, but please be able to read between the lines. "protecting people from porn, extremists and pedophiles." That sounds great, but who decides what falls under extreme? For example, in the eyes of a religion, every other religion can be considered extreme content. -- Also: yes, censorship is bad and yes, there should be no such thing, but there are worse things than that.

tuxracer 11y ago

The false equivalence here is off the charts. Let's compare: http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ipn=r&ct=201326592&cl=2&lm=-1&st=-1&fm=detail&fr=&sf=1&fmq=1445991506423_R&pv=&ic=0&nc=1&z=&se=&showtab=0&fb=0&width=&height=&face=0&istype=2&ie=utf-8&word=%E7%8E%8B%E7%BB%B4%E6%9E%97 http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ipn=r&ct=2... to https://www.google.com.hk/search?q=%E7%8E%8B%E7%BB%B4%E6%9E%97&biw=1181&bih=577&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIydXHmvLjyAIVTDeICh19OASU https://www.google.com.hk/search?q=%E7%8E%8B%E7%BB%B4%E6%9E%...