6 ms·

Ways to improve gender equity in the tech sector

19 points by Oatseller 11y ago

skimpycompiler 11y ago
Even simpler methods exist. Realize that framing your daughters behavior by giving her babies, princesses, dolls, makeup, clothes and similar to play with, while your boy gets the newest action games, puzzles, balls, competitive and brain engaging fun, will definitely influence her future career choices. When you take your daughter to look at some princess movies, or some toy story thingy, while you watch star wars and star trek with your son, long into the night, think of what kind of framing is done. Of course, even if you try to keep all the options open. Someone from her school might make your daughter do "girls only" activities. Or maybe she'll be forbidden from accessing the Star Wars room at Legoland because she's a girl. Whole world is against your little girl becoming like a man. She needs babies so she knows she has to be a mother. She needs kitchen games so she knows she has to cook. She needs to play with dolls, to groom them, to dress them, so that she eventually does the same for herself. She needs to be pretty, and by pretty we mean makeup. If someone is naive enough to believe that boys and girls have innately different interests, then so be it. But girls ain't "gurls" because they don't like technology.
- facepalm 11y ago
  How does Star Wars prepare you do be a programmer, and watching a princess movies does not? I don't recall any programming scenes in Star Wars? And all those movies are made with computers. Girls tend to be encouraged to lots of creative activity which could also come in handy with computer jobs. They also do well in maths at schools (better than boys, apparently). Can you cite any studies that support your claim?
- tim333 11y ago
  That stuff's been tried and doesn't do the trick. Human nature's still there.
  - jolux 11y ago
    So it's "human nature" that boys like tech and girls like princesses?
    - drpgq 11y ago
      Testosterone?
      - tim333 11y ago
        Surprisingly that might work - "Several animal studies have shown that hormonal manipulation can reverse sex-typed behavior. When researchers exposed female rhesus monkeys to male hormones prenatally, these females later displayed male-like levels of rough-and-tumble play." http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/you-can-give-a-boy-a-doll-but-you-cant-make-him-play-with-it/265977/ http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/you-can-giv...
    - collyw 11y ago
      Yes its been shown in monkey studies, so its actually deeper than human nature.
      - jolux 11y ago
        Male monkeys like computers and female monkeys like princesses? That's literally literally the most absurd statement I've ever processed.
        collyw 11y ago
        I posted a link about the study elsewhere in the thread.
        jolux 11y ago
        I'm not really sure how a study about monkeys has any relevance to whether humans have engrained gender roles. People are cognitively far more complex and nature vs. nurture when it comes to gender is not really as decided as it might seem.
- millermp12 11y ago
  Clearly you never had children.
- NoCulturalFit 11y ago
  Agreed, gotta start early like parents used to do with boys. Need to show things are accessible regardless of gender.
- collyw 11y ago
  "If someone is naive enough to believe that boys and girls have innately different interests, then so be it." Its been shown that male monkeys prefer boys toys while females prefer girls toys. No cultural conditioning required. http://animalwise.org/2012/01/26/born-this-way-gender-based-toy-preferences-in-primates/ http://animalwise.org/2012/01/26/born-this-way-gender-based-...
  - Kalium 11y ago
    Before someone jumps in with the notion that monkeys have culture too, it should be noted that monkeys have not developed the wheel. Thus, they are unlikely to have defined gender roles for wheeled toys.
- johngalt 11y ago
  Please use care when dealing with the girls in your life. I know plenty of girls who want to build robots out of the pink legos. Or treat clothing with rules remarkably similar to programming. Please avoid preaching to these girls that they have to throw a ball or play action games to avoid limiting their career choices. I've met a number of people who espouse views similar to yours. You believe you're sticking up for girls, but all the kids hear is that girly stuff is 'bad' and boy stuff is 'good'. Someday you might know a girl who really just wants to take care of babies. Do you think she is entitled to have that view? How would she take comments like yours? Will she think that because her goals are 'bad' that she is 'bad'. How would a boy who wants to take care of babies react when everyone sees baby toys as lesser? Do you think they will feel free to be more feminine? Or pressured to conform even further. You're reinforcing what you believe you oppose.
  - skimpycompiler 11y ago
    I'm not advocating for girls playing boy games. I'm just saying that there's crazy amount of conditioning here, and that people might unconsciously make choices for their daughters that will lead them to a very different life. I am also saying that there's crazy amount of pressure from kindergarten teachers, and who knows what other environments. > Do you think she is entitled to have that view? How would she take comments like yours? My comment was pretty much black&white. I'm not advocating pressure. I'm painting my views this simple to evoke questioning of one's choices regarding raising children. Realistically, women do not go into tech do to tech looking unattractive to women. Women find this men dominant field unattractive for reasons that are mostly based on early conditioning. It's not that they are incompetent, they just do not try.
    - exstudent2 11y ago
      > people might unconsciously make choices for their daughters that will lead them to a very different life. Do you think that life will be worse than if their upbringing was optimized to turn them into engineers? Playing devil's advocate... traditional gender roles must hold some value otherwise people wouldn't adhere to them. There are also many women who enjoy what would be considered a traditional role. I think this push to get women into tech at all costs is stealing quite a bit of agency from people who are exerting their free will (both in career choice and child raising technique).
- Psyonic 11y ago
  I totally agree that a huge part of who we are is our nurturing, but your claims that there are NO innate differences don't really seem to hold. Have you seen this case that many college psychology courses cover? http://sciencecases.lib.buffalo.edu/cs/files/gender_reassignment.pdf http://sciencecases.lib.buffalo.edu/cs/files/gender_reassign...
codemac 11y ago
#4 is super important for many things, not just gender equity. One of the biggest ones is to make sure that you actually clearly communicate what you want out of an employee. If you expect someone to be doing more work than someone else, but they have the same title.. you may want different titles. Or clear (and public!) pay grades that signify seniority if you don't want MTS1 MTS2 MTS3 MTS4 MTS5 MTS++ style titles. Companies, especially small ones, that skirt performance review policies as either unimportant or "too formal" can lead to a lot of incidental/accidental discrimination that goes unnoticed until it's too late.
- meric 11y ago
  We had expanded to a new country and decided to open an office there. Since we didn't know the market rates for developers over there the founder proposed to pay whatever people ask for plus 10%. We ended up hiring a light skinned person and a dark skinned person. The latter was more experienced and skilled than the former and had asked for 40% less salary. I only found out after we had hired them and spent a lot of goodwill convincing the founder to increase his salary to the same level. It was crazy we were going to pay one person more for less skills because the color of his skin made him have higher salary expectations! There was also the other issue of him acting as if he knew more than everyone when he didn't but I'm digressing...
  - zo1 11y ago
    >"It was crazy we were going to pay one person more for less skills because the color of his skin made him have higher salary expectations!" Let's not bring race into this. Not unless said employee was making comments/opinions such as "I'm white, therefore I deserve more" or "I expect more because I'm white". At the very least, you would have no idea to the motives behind his higher expectations (or the other person's lower expectations).
    - meric 11y ago
      Yes, let's make it clear it isn't a first order effect but likely a third or fourth order effect. E.g. They grew up in different areas of the country, one part having higher living standard expectations, and if you get to the bottom of it, it had to do with race at some point decades ago.
setra 11y ago
This is literally what happens: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2015/06/stemwomen.jpg http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2015/06/stemwom...
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Ah yes, the old tactic of framing those who disagree with you as outsiders in an attempt to discredit them. You know what? Screw you. I grew up a nerd. I was the computer kid. I had shitty social skills. I'm not an outsider. And I care about diversity in tech, as do many of my friends in identical situations. Stop it.
- jolux 11y ago
  Regardless of your opinion of the article, this isn't really relevant to the topic at hand, in fact it's an inflammatory suggestion unsupported by evidence that has nothing to do with creating discourse.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    The evidence supports his cartoon: http://ngcproject.org/statistics http://ngcproject.org/statistics
    - xixi77 11y ago
      The evidence you are linking refers to women being less likely to go into those fields; but I don't think that is the point of the cartoon at all. It is trying to dismiss those who argue for trying to address the imbalance as having no field experience, and I don't think it's the case at all.
- abritinthebay 11y ago
  If you really think that... then congrats: you're part of the problem.
  - setra 11y ago
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
Also remember that gender isn't the only diversity issue in tech. Race is too, among others.
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  No one care about race. Studies have shown gender >> race for companies. Check out Lauren Rivera's Pedigree.
- collyw 11y ago
  Race is an interesting one in IT. I have seen many indian programers but hardly any black ones. I never see any Asian techies in europe, but I hear there are a fair number in the states.
  - rhino369 11y ago
    >I never see any Asian techies in europe, but I hear there are a fair number in the states. Wow really?
  - S4M 11y ago
    > I never see any Asian techies in europe There you have one, and in the same city as you! At my previous workplace (in Barcelona) there was a Taiwanese programmer, and before that in London I met many Asian (mostly Chinese) programmers.
xixi77 11y ago
All looks very reasonable; but I have some partial doubts on the #3, Improve Job Descriptions, more specifically on picking words that women prefer to see. It may be the case that women on average prefer job descriptions mentioning (quoting the link) "sociable" and "responsible" to "independent" and "analytical", but these are not entirely meaningless characteristics. There definitely are people, both men and women, who would be turned off by the former and attracted by the latter, and perhaps they would have been a better fit for the job, given the original description?
- collyw 11y ago
  Most of the ads I see want specific tech skills. If men or women don't have those they are not going to apply.
  - xixi77 11y ago
    Well, actually my anecdotal experience kinda aligns with what the article says in that part: I know a few people -- all of them women -- who would look at an ad saying "X,Y,Z,and T", and say "sure I am comfortable with X, Y and T, but I don't know much Z, so it's clearly not for me".
iMark 11y ago
In an office of around 40 employees, there are 0 women. I would very much like to see the ratio of men to women equalise. (I'm an asexual male - this has nothing to do with getting my rocks off).
- collyw 11y ago
  My last wokplace was a genome sequencing centre. Half wet lab and half computer people (bioinformatics and software devs). The wet lab was almost exclusivley female, while the bioinformaticians were mainly male.
yagibear 11y ago
Why is it that so many people (such as this author) use participation rates as an indicator of equity? I understand gender equity to refer to equal TREATMENT of different genders, which is quite different from having equal NUMBERS of both genders in the workplace. Some differences in participation rates MAY be due to gender inequity, but some may also be due to other factors such as innate differences between genders (a crude example: perceptions about the meaning of prerequisites as mentioned in the article). The first proposed "solution" merely promotes participation rates as a measure of gender equity, and the 2nd proposal "Provide female entrepreneurs with..." just adds another form of inequity. Only the 4th proposal seems truly gender neutral and constructive.
- B-Con 11y ago
  > Why is it that so many people (such as this author) use participation rates as an indicator of equity? It's easier to chase metrics than fix problems. Any many are deaf to the possibility that equal treatment would not yield equal participation.
  - setra 11y ago
    This is just the Marxist dialectic applied to social issues. If there is a difference in outcome it can only be because of discrimination.
    - necessity 11y ago
      Relevant: https://youtu.be/ENL-Jv8GVkk#t=29m15s https://youtu.be/ENL-Jv8GVkk#t=29m15s
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    Why wouldn't it? Kids are taught from childhood what their gender is supposed to like. If we got rid of that, surely far more non-men would be in tech.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
kelukelugames 11y ago
Making security badges more friendly to women's clothing would go a long way.
- blhack 11y ago
  Can you explain?
  - kelukelugames 11y ago
    There are a lot of little thing that remind women they don't belong. Apparently badges are one of the minor peeves. A guy can just clip them on their belt loops. That doesn't always work for women.
    - trhway 11y ago
      I wonder how well an employee can fit into a corporate drone role (what most jobs in tech are) if that employee's issues already start with the badge.
      - kelukelugames 11y ago
        It don't think it's a major issue. Just something I heard a couple of my friends complain about.
  - Zikes 11y ago
    I'm also interested in knowing how a badge on a lanyard or clip could be unfriendly for women.
jfaucett 11y ago
For me a portion of this problem is caused by religion as well, particularly those with sexist ideologies (for example islam see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam). Though, this is a subject that I rarely if ever hear brought up in the media, even in european irreligious countries like sweden. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_by_country) If you cross reference the countries by religion and their rating on gender equality, you will notice the most religious countries are some of the most inequal.(http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2014/rankings/ http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2014/ran..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations#By_proportion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations#...) This doesnt mean both are related of course, but if you think beliefs about moral affect behavior you would expect to see this type of correlation. Im prepared to get downvoted for my opinion on the detriments of religion here so have at me :) EDIT: If you downvote please say why? Id like to see good counter argument.
- trhway 11y ago
  interesting how a strong necessity (like life and death necessity) overrules the gender inequality, even the one well embedded in the dominating religion in a pretty religious country - i mean females serving in Israel army.
clockworkelf 11y ago
Why bother with this Cultural Marxism? Women have equality of opportunity so an enforced "equality of outcome" is authoritarian and fascist. Most women don't want to code, so leave them alone; the real victims are the men who have to lower their performance standards because of affirmative action. And for the women who want to code, let them code and give them some dignity.
necessity 11y ago
Why are there so few male manicures? Why so few male babysitters? Why so few female NASCAR drivers? Why so few female in the army? Why so few male in the wedding dress business? We MUST to do something about this! People of a certain gender cannot prefer some activities over others! This is ridiculous.
gyardley 11y ago
The best way to improve gender equity in tech (and fight just about every other form of discrimination at the same time) is to put an end to Silicon Valley's ridiculous culture of overwork. I don't know how everyone fell into this trap - it leads to terrible code, developer burnout, and eventually drives out anyone who has or wants any semblance of a life outside of work, which in practice is anyone who isn't a male in their twenties. I don't care what your personal politics on gender equality are - if you're making your employees work sixty-hour weeks you're functionally identical to Pat Buchanan.
facepalm 11y ago
Perhaps one reason is that jobs in Computing are typically not all that attractive? My current freelance project sees me working in a room with 20 people, lined up on long desks (not even Cubicles). After a while, it can get a bit smelly. There are 4 women and 16 men working in the room, and to be honest I wonder why the women put up with it (they are not developers, either). That kind of setup is not uncommon. I have been asked to work in windowless rooms, which I rejected. I have worked in ugly industrial areas and ugly buildings. I have worked in the basement that wasn't officially suitable for human use (only legal for storage). After 6 hours, my eyes hurt from the strain of looking at HTML and Javascript all day, trying to find tiny mistakes in the source code. But I have at least 2 more hours to go. Human interaction is minimal - yes there are meetings, but that is not the same as human interaction that for example a doctor sees. Sure, jobs at Google or Facebook might be fancy. But even at big companies (including Google) I have seen those big open plan offices. They just had more colorful toys lying around at Google. And most devs won't work for Facebook or Google. Why do I put up with it? Because I need the money to feed my family, and I can not easily switch to another profession. This is probably controversial and will give me downvotes, but most women don't need to work to feed their family - their husbands do that. So they are not forced to put up with smelly, crowded, windowless rooms for years and years on end. And women can easily switch profession, too: they can simply become mothers, which 40% choose to do (become fulltime moms, that is - more women become mothers of course). I enjoy programming for my own projects, but most dev jobs I did for money were gruesome. Note that this gruesomeness affects women and men in the same way. There are no offensive Star Wars posters or other Geeky things lining the walls. The environments just tend to be less comfy, because devs only stare into their computers anyway. The notion always seems to be that the women who shy away from tech end up leading "wasted", brainless lives as housewives. Not so. They become doctors, or journalists, or liberal arts people (and btw., housewive and spending time with your kids is not all that bad either). I understand if companies want to lure women into tech, because it gives them a greater talent pool and lower wages (because of greater supply). But it is not an issue of equality.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Programming can be shit for sure. But we shouldn't push out people who want to do it. We don't tell boys not to.
KaiserPro 11y ago
Your first port of call should be equality. Your job postings are quite rightly designed to filter out people that lack the skills you are after. However they also serve as an unwitting barrier. One thing I have seen that is successful is actively going out and recruiting people who are different from you. Universities are a great source of untapped talent. More importantly they haven't been beaten down by classism/sexism/*ism. Being surrounded by people who look, act and sound like you is a boring boring life.
Mz 11y ago
I wish we had something more like The Rooney Rule and less of this kind of discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule
notacoward 11y ago
Blind auditions. Do knowledge- and skills-based tests in such a way that the people administering them don't know the race, gender, or age of the candidate. Ditto for behavioral tests - you know, the trick questions and fake scenarios designed to ferret out whether you're honest, passionate, creative, etc. Have someone else evaluate experience and/or references. Constructing the necessary exercises and evaluations is a lot more work than traditional interviewing, especially if you also want to avoid the "silly puzzle questions that only prove you read the same book" syndrome, but it is possible and would avoid most kinds of bias.

19 points by Oatseller 11y ago

Even simpler methods exist. Realize that framing your daughters behavior by giving her babies, princesses, dolls, makeup, clothes and similar to play with, while your boy gets the newest action games, puzzles, balls, competitive and brain engaging fun, will definitely influence her future career choices. When you take your daughter to look at some princess movies, or some toy story thingy, while you watch star wars and star trek with your son, long into the night, think of what kind of framing is done. Of course, even if you try to keep all the options open. Someone from her school might make your daughter do "girls only" activities. Or maybe she'll be forbidden from accessing the Star Wars room at Legoland because she's a girl. Whole world is against your little girl becoming like a man. She needs babies so she knows she has to be a mother. She needs kitchen games so she knows she has to cook. She needs to play with dolls, to groom them, to dress them, so that she eventually does the same for herself. She needs to be pretty, and by pretty we mean makeup. If someone is naive enough to believe that boys and girls have innately different interests, then so be it. But girls ain't "gurls" because they don't like technology.

facepalm 11y ago
How does Star Wars prepare you do be a programmer, and watching a princess movies does not? I don't recall any programming scenes in Star Wars? And all those movies are made with computers. Girls tend to be encouraged to lots of creative activity which could also come in handy with computer jobs. They also do well in maths at schools (better than boys, apparently). Can you cite any studies that support your claim?
tim333 11y ago
That stuff's been tried and doesn't do the trick. Human nature's still there.
- jolux 11y ago
  So it's "human nature" that boys like tech and girls like princesses?
  - drpgq 11y ago
    Testosterone?
    - tim333 11y ago
      Surprisingly that might work - "Several animal studies have shown that hormonal manipulation can reverse sex-typed behavior. When researchers exposed female rhesus monkeys to male hormones prenatally, these females later displayed male-like levels of rough-and-tumble play." http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/you-can-give-a-boy-a-doll-but-you-cant-make-him-play-with-it/265977/ http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/you-can-giv...
  - collyw 11y ago
    Yes its been shown in monkey studies, so its actually deeper than human nature.
    - jolux 11y ago
      Male monkeys like computers and female monkeys like princesses? That's literally literally the most absurd statement I've ever processed.
      - collyw 11y ago
        I posted a link about the study elsewhere in the thread.
        jolux 11y ago
        I'm not really sure how a study about monkeys has any relevance to whether humans have engrained gender roles. People are cognitively far more complex and nature vs. nurture when it comes to gender is not really as decided as it might seem.
millermp12 11y ago
Clearly you never had children.
NoCulturalFit 11y ago
Agreed, gotta start early like parents used to do with boys. Need to show things are accessible regardless of gender.
collyw 11y ago
"If someone is naive enough to believe that boys and girls have innately different interests, then so be it." Its been shown that male monkeys prefer boys toys while females prefer girls toys. No cultural conditioning required. http://animalwise.org/2012/01/26/born-this-way-gender-based-toy-preferences-in-primates/ http://animalwise.org/2012/01/26/born-this-way-gender-based-...
- Kalium 11y ago
  Before someone jumps in with the notion that monkeys have culture too, it should be noted that monkeys have not developed the wheel. Thus, they are unlikely to have defined gender roles for wheeled toys.
johngalt 11y ago
Please use care when dealing with the girls in your life. I know plenty of girls who want to build robots out of the pink legos. Or treat clothing with rules remarkably similar to programming. Please avoid preaching to these girls that they have to throw a ball or play action games to avoid limiting their career choices. I've met a number of people who espouse views similar to yours. You believe you're sticking up for girls, but all the kids hear is that girly stuff is 'bad' and boy stuff is 'good'. Someday you might know a girl who really just wants to take care of babies. Do you think she is entitled to have that view? How would she take comments like yours? Will she think that because her goals are 'bad' that she is 'bad'. How would a boy who wants to take care of babies react when everyone sees baby toys as lesser? Do you think they will feel free to be more feminine? Or pressured to conform even further. You're reinforcing what you believe you oppose.
- skimpycompiler 11y ago
  I'm not advocating for girls playing boy games. I'm just saying that there's crazy amount of conditioning here, and that people might unconsciously make choices for their daughters that will lead them to a very different life. I am also saying that there's crazy amount of pressure from kindergarten teachers, and who knows what other environments. > Do you think she is entitled to have that view? How would she take comments like yours? My comment was pretty much black&white. I'm not advocating pressure. I'm painting my views this simple to evoke questioning of one's choices regarding raising children. Realistically, women do not go into tech do to tech looking unattractive to women. Women find this men dominant field unattractive for reasons that are mostly based on early conditioning. It's not that they are incompetent, they just do not try.
  - exstudent2 11y ago
    > people might unconsciously make choices for their daughters that will lead them to a very different life. Do you think that life will be worse than if their upbringing was optimized to turn them into engineers? Playing devil's advocate... traditional gender roles must hold some value otherwise people wouldn't adhere to them. There are also many women who enjoy what would be considered a traditional role. I think this push to get women into tech at all costs is stealing quite a bit of agency from people who are exerting their free will (both in career choice and child raising technique).
Psyonic 11y ago
I totally agree that a huge part of who we are is our nurturing, but your claims that there are NO innate differences don't really seem to hold. Have you seen this case that many college psychology courses cover? http://sciencecases.lib.buffalo.edu/cs/files/gender_reassignment.pdf http://sciencecases.lib.buffalo.edu/cs/files/gender_reassign...

codemac 11y ago

#4 is super important for many things, not just gender equity. One of the biggest ones is to make sure that you actually clearly communicate what you want out of an employee. If you expect someone to be doing more work than someone else, but they have the same title.. you may want different titles. Or clear (and public!) pay grades that signify seniority if you don't want MTS1 MTS2 MTS3 MTS4 MTS5 MTS++ style titles. Companies, especially small ones, that skirt performance review policies as either unimportant or "too formal" can lead to a lot of incidental/accidental discrimination that goes unnoticed until it's too late.

meric 11y ago
We had expanded to a new country and decided to open an office there. Since we didn't know the market rates for developers over there the founder proposed to pay whatever people ask for plus 10%. We ended up hiring a light skinned person and a dark skinned person. The latter was more experienced and skilled than the former and had asked for 40% less salary. I only found out after we had hired them and spent a lot of goodwill convincing the founder to increase his salary to the same level. It was crazy we were going to pay one person more for less skills because the color of his skin made him have higher salary expectations! There was also the other issue of him acting as if he knew more than everyone when he didn't but I'm digressing...
- zo1 11y ago
  >"It was crazy we were going to pay one person more for less skills because the color of his skin made him have higher salary expectations!" Let's not bring race into this. Not unless said employee was making comments/opinions such as "I'm white, therefore I deserve more" or "I expect more because I'm white". At the very least, you would have no idea to the motives behind his higher expectations (or the other person's lower expectations).
  - meric 11y ago
    Yes, let's make it clear it isn't a first order effect but likely a third or fourth order effect. E.g. They grew up in different areas of the country, one part having higher living standard expectations, and if you get to the bottom of it, it had to do with race at some point decades ago.

setra 11y ago

This is literally what happens: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2015/06/stemwomen.jpg http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2015/06/stemwom...

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
Ah yes, the old tactic of framing those who disagree with you as outsiders in an attempt to discredit them. You know what? Screw you. I grew up a nerd. I was the computer kid. I had shitty social skills. I'm not an outsider. And I care about diversity in tech, as do many of my friends in identical situations. Stop it.
jolux 11y ago
Regardless of your opinion of the article, this isn't really relevant to the topic at hand, in fact it's an inflammatory suggestion unsupported by evidence that has nothing to do with creating discourse.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  The evidence supports his cartoon: http://ngcproject.org/statistics http://ngcproject.org/statistics
  - xixi77 11y ago
    The evidence you are linking refers to women being less likely to go into those fields; but I don't think that is the point of the cartoon at all. It is trying to dismiss those who argue for trying to address the imbalance as having no field experience, and I don't think it's the case at all.
abritinthebay 11y ago
If you really think that... then congrats: you're part of the problem.
- setra 11y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

Also remember that gender isn't the only diversity issue in tech. Race is too, among others.

kelukelugames 11y ago
No one care about race. Studies have shown gender >> race for companies. Check out Lauren Rivera's Pedigree.
collyw 11y ago
Race is an interesting one in IT. I have seen many indian programers but hardly any black ones. I never see any Asian techies in europe, but I hear there are a fair number in the states.
- rhino369 11y ago
  >I never see any Asian techies in europe, but I hear there are a fair number in the states. Wow really?
- S4M 11y ago
  > I never see any Asian techies in europe There you have one, and in the same city as you! At my previous workplace (in Barcelona) there was a Taiwanese programmer, and before that in London I met many Asian (mostly Chinese) programmers.

xixi77 11y ago

All looks very reasonable; but I have some partial doubts on the #3, Improve Job Descriptions, more specifically on picking words that women prefer to see. It may be the case that women on average prefer job descriptions mentioning (quoting the link) "sociable" and "responsible" to "independent" and "analytical", but these are not entirely meaningless characteristics. There definitely are people, both men and women, who would be turned off by the former and attracted by the latter, and perhaps they would have been a better fit for the job, given the original description?

collyw 11y ago
Most of the ads I see want specific tech skills. If men or women don't have those they are not going to apply.
- xixi77 11y ago
  Well, actually my anecdotal experience kinda aligns with what the article says in that part: I know a few people -- all of them women -- who would look at an ad saying "X,Y,Z,and T", and say "sure I am comfortable with X, Y and T, but I don't know much Z, so it's clearly not for me".

iMark 11y ago

In an office of around 40 employees, there are 0 women. I would very much like to see the ratio of men to women equalise. (I'm an asexual male - this has nothing to do with getting my rocks off).

collyw 11y ago
My last wokplace was a genome sequencing centre. Half wet lab and half computer people (bioinformatics and software devs). The wet lab was almost exclusivley female, while the bioinformaticians were mainly male.

yagibear 11y ago

Why is it that so many people (such as this author) use participation rates as an indicator of equity? I understand gender equity to refer to equal TREATMENT of different genders, which is quite different from having equal NUMBERS of both genders in the workplace. Some differences in participation rates MAY be due to gender inequity, but some may also be due to other factors such as innate differences between genders (a crude example: perceptions about the meaning of prerequisites as mentioned in the article). The first proposed "solution" merely promotes participation rates as a measure of gender equity, and the 2nd proposal "Provide female entrepreneurs with..." just adds another form of inequity. Only the 4th proposal seems truly gender neutral and constructive.

B-Con 11y ago
> Why is it that so many people (such as this author) use participation rates as an indicator of equity? It's easier to chase metrics than fix problems. Any many are deaf to the possibility that equal treatment would not yield equal participation.
- setra 11y ago
  This is just the Marxist dialectic applied to social issues. If there is a difference in outcome it can only be because of discrimination.
  - necessity 11y ago
    Relevant: https://youtu.be/ENL-Jv8GVkk#t=29m15s https://youtu.be/ENL-Jv8GVkk#t=29m15s
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Why wouldn't it? Kids are taught from childhood what their gender is supposed to like. If we got rid of that, surely far more non-men would be in tech.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]

kelukelugames 11y ago

Making security badges more friendly to women's clothing would go a long way.

blhack 11y ago
Can you explain?
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  There are a lot of little thing that remind women they don't belong. Apparently badges are one of the minor peeves. A guy can just clip them on their belt loops. That doesn't always work for women.
  - trhway 11y ago
    I wonder how well an employee can fit into a corporate drone role (what most jobs in tech are) if that employee's issues already start with the badge.
    - kelukelugames 11y ago
      It don't think it's a major issue. Just something I heard a couple of my friends complain about.
- Zikes 11y ago
  I'm also interested in knowing how a badge on a lanyard or clip could be unfriendly for women.

jfaucett 11y ago

For me a portion of this problem is caused by religion as well, particularly those with sexist ideologies (for example islam see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam). Though, this is a subject that I rarely if ever hear brought up in the media, even in european irreligious countries like sweden. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_by_country) If you cross reference the countries by religion and their rating on gender equality, you will notice the most religious countries are some of the most inequal.(http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2014/rankings/ http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2014/ran..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations#By_proportion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations#...) This doesnt mean both are related of course, but if you think beliefs about moral affect behavior you would expect to see this type of correlation. Im prepared to get downvoted for my opinion on the detriments of religion here so have at me :) EDIT: If you downvote please say why? Id like to see good counter argument.

trhway 11y ago
interesting how a strong necessity (like life and death necessity) overrules the gender inequality, even the one well embedded in the dominating religion in a pretty religious country - i mean females serving in Israel army.

clockworkelf 11y ago

Why bother with this Cultural Marxism? Women have equality of opportunity so an enforced "equality of outcome" is authoritarian and fascist. Most women don't want to code, so leave them alone; the real victims are the men who have to lower their performance standards because of affirmative action. And for the women who want to code, let them code and give them some dignity.

necessity 11y ago

Why are there so few male manicures? Why so few male babysitters? Why so few female NASCAR drivers? Why so few female in the army? Why so few male in the wedding dress business? We MUST to do something about this! People of a certain gender cannot prefer some activities over others! This is ridiculous.

gyardley 11y ago

The best way to improve gender equity in tech (and fight just about every other form of discrimination at the same time) is to put an end to Silicon Valley's ridiculous culture of overwork. I don't know how everyone fell into this trap - it leads to terrible code, developer burnout, and eventually drives out anyone who has or wants any semblance of a life outside of work, which in practice is anyone who isn't a male in their twenties. I don't care what your personal politics on gender equality are - if you're making your employees work sixty-hour weeks you're functionally identical to Pat Buchanan.

facepalm 11y ago

Perhaps one reason is that jobs in Computing are typically not all that attractive? My current freelance project sees me working in a room with 20 people, lined up on long desks (not even Cubicles). After a while, it can get a bit smelly. There are 4 women and 16 men working in the room, and to be honest I wonder why the women put up with it (they are not developers, either). That kind of setup is not uncommon. I have been asked to work in windowless rooms, which I rejected. I have worked in ugly industrial areas and ugly buildings. I have worked in the basement that wasn't officially suitable for human use (only legal for storage). After 6 hours, my eyes hurt from the strain of looking at HTML and Javascript all day, trying to find tiny mistakes in the source code. But I have at least 2 more hours to go. Human interaction is minimal - yes there are meetings, but that is not the same as human interaction that for example a doctor sees. Sure, jobs at Google or Facebook might be fancy. But even at big companies (including Google) I have seen those big open plan offices. They just had more colorful toys lying around at Google. And most devs won't work for Facebook or Google. Why do I put up with it? Because I need the money to feed my family, and I can not easily switch to another profession. This is probably controversial and will give me downvotes, but most women don't need to work to feed their family - their husbands do that. So they are not forced to put up with smelly, crowded, windowless rooms for years and years on end. And women can easily switch profession, too: they can simply become mothers, which 40% choose to do (become fulltime moms, that is - more women become mothers of course). I enjoy programming for my own projects, but most dev jobs I did for money were gruesome. Note that this gruesomeness affects women and men in the same way. There are no offensive Star Wars posters or other Geeky things lining the walls. The environments just tend to be less comfy, because devs only stare into their computers anyway. The notion always seems to be that the women who shy away from tech end up leading "wasted", brainless lives as housewives. Not so. They become doctors, or journalists, or liberal arts people (and btw., housewive and spending time with your kids is not all that bad either). I understand if companies want to lure women into tech, because it gives them a greater talent pool and lower wages (because of greater supply). But it is not an issue of equality.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
Programming can be shit for sure. But we shouldn't push out people who want to do it. We don't tell boys not to.

KaiserPro 11y ago

Your first port of call should be equality. Your job postings are quite rightly designed to filter out people that lack the skills you are after. However they also serve as an unwitting barrier. One thing I have seen that is successful is actively going out and recruiting people who are different from you. Universities are a great source of untapped talent. More importantly they haven't been beaten down by classism/sexism/*ism. Being surrounded by people who look, act and sound like you is a boring boring life.

Mz 11y ago

I wish we had something more like The Rooney Rule and less of this kind of discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule

notacoward 11y ago

Blind auditions. Do knowledge- and skills-based tests in such a way that the people administering them don't know the race, gender, or age of the candidate. Ditto for behavioral tests - you know, the trick questions and fake scenarios designed to ferret out whether you're honest, passionate, creative, etc. Have someone else evaluate experience and/or references. Constructing the necessary exercises and evaluations is a lot more work than traditional interviewing, especially if you also want to avoid the "silly puzzle questions that only prove you read the same book" syndrome, but it is possible and would avoid most kinds of bias.