4 ms·

In other words, if this is a real problem, your undeniably good advice actually isn't constructive towards fixing the root issue. It's allowing it to perpetuate

by zzalpha 11y ago

In other words, if this is a real problem, your undeniably good advice actually isn't constructive towards fixing the root issue. It's allowing it to perpetuate. And raging on Tumblr is? Look, if there's some deeply embedded injustice going on, here, it's not evident from this single exchange. If this single exchange is part of a broader pattern with this person, that's something a manager and HR can help deal with, and you would be very well advised to keep cool in order to avoid escalating the situation further. Maintaining the moral high-ground isn't just about ideals, it's also practical advice for winning out in an exchange like this. If this exchange is part of a larger, company-wide or societal trend, speaking about it rationally is still the better course as, right now, it's very hard to take this person seriously. Without additional context, this just looks like an insecure 20-something who's just struggling with their first workplace confrontation. To some up: I can think of no scenario where behaving as this person has done will improve the situation, whether it's a one-off, or something systemic. Edit: Incidentally, it's entirely possible that this person raged out on their blog as part of processing this whole thing, then stepped back and started looking for a constructive path forward. If that's the case, great. Everything I've written, here, presumes that this post represents their definitive reaction to the situation, which may be entirely unfair.

lukev 11y ago
If there is a systemic problem, then yes, loud, fervent and frequent verbal raging from all quarters is an appropriate response. "Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Look, I don't know what the truth is here. To some extent I don't care. But I do know that there is a pervasive problem with sexism in tech, and I know that every time you or I publicly comment on it, we take a side. If you show support, you're sending the message to everyone that that discrimination is not cool. If you publicly undermine the reliability or emotional state of the reporter, you are actively re-affirming the status quo and denying that there is a problem. If you doubt the reliability of someone, do it privately. Don't comment at all. As it is, I can only assume that you actively oppose the growing movement to try and solve this problem. Speech acts matter. Even online.
- zzalpha 11y ago
  "Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Where did I say she should do that? I said she should be mature and maintain the moral high ground. I didn't say she should shut up. Perhaps you're reading more into my words than is actually there? If you publicly undermine the reliability or emotional state of the reporter, you are actively re-affirming the status quo and denying that there is a problem. If you assume all workplace confrontations between man and woman represent some form of sexism, you diminish the actual struggles of women everywhere. ---- As a related aside, Dr. King had a few words to say along these lines, including: We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies. It would seem you would've told King he should keep his observations to himself.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - lukev 11y ago
    You keep re-framing this in terms of "a workplace confrontation," yet your only engagement with this situation, at all, is an eyewitness account claiming it was problematic. Negating and ignoring the subjective experience of women is very root of the problem in question. And that's exactly what you're doing! Also, white males quoting MLK at minorities to get them to behave is so cliche, it's actually a pretty reliable signal of bad faith. I would advise you to avoid it in the future.
    - zzalpha 11y ago
      Negating and ignoring the subjective experience of women is very root of the problem in question. You do realize you can criticize someone of being a bad actor without aiding and abetting sexism. Can't you? Or would you have me believe that criticizing, say, the Black Panthers or the IRA for their actions is basically racist, too? Also, white males quoting MLK at minorities to get them to behave is so cliche, it's actually a pretty reliable signal of bad faith. And not learning anything from illuminating, historical analogies, and the wisdom of luminaries from those struggles, is evidence of willful ignorance. The fact that you assume I'm a "white male", and therefore that my quoting a black man is "cliche" is also borderline racist... Would it have been better if I quoted Ghandi? Jesus? Which leaders espousing views of peace, justice, and understanding in the face of adversity would you prefer I'd have quoted, given your assumptions about my gender and ethnicity?

by zzalpha 11y ago

lukev 11y ago

If there is a systemic problem, then yes, loud, fervent and frequent verbal raging from all quarters is an appropriate response. "Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Look, I don't know what the truth is here. To some extent I don't care. But I do know that there is a pervasive problem with sexism in tech, and I know that every time you or I publicly comment on it, we take a side. If you show support, you're sending the message to everyone that that discrimination is not cool. If you publicly undermine the reliability or emotional state of the reporter, you are actively re-affirming the status quo and denying that there is a problem. If you doubt the reliability of someone, do it privately. Don't comment at all. As it is, I can only assume that you actively oppose the growing movement to try and solve this problem. Speech acts matter. Even online.

zzalpha 11y ago
"Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Where did I say she should do that? I said she should be mature and maintain the moral high ground. I didn't say she should shut up. Perhaps you're reading more into my words than is actually there? If you publicly undermine the reliability or emotional state of the reporter, you are actively re-affirming the status quo and denying that there is a problem. If you assume all workplace confrontations between man and woman represent some form of sexism, you diminish the actual struggles of women everywhere. ---- As a related aside, Dr. King had a few words to say along these lines, including: We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies. It would seem you would've told King he should keep his observations to himself.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- lukev 11y ago
  You keep re-framing this in terms of "a workplace confrontation," yet your only engagement with this situation, at all, is an eyewitness account claiming it was problematic. Negating and ignoring the subjective experience of women is very root of the problem in question. And that's exactly what you're doing! Also, white males quoting MLK at minorities to get them to behave is so cliche, it's actually a pretty reliable signal of bad faith. I would advise you to avoid it in the future.
  - zzalpha 11y ago
    Negating and ignoring the subjective experience of women is very root of the problem in question. You do realize you can criticize someone of being a bad actor without aiding and abetting sexism. Can't you? Or would you have me believe that criticizing, say, the Black Panthers or the IRA for their actions is basically racist, too? Also, white males quoting MLK at minorities to get them to behave is so cliche, it's actually a pretty reliable signal of bad faith. And not learning anything from illuminating, historical analogies, and the wisdom of luminaries from those struggles, is evidence of willful ignorance. The fact that you assume I'm a "white male", and therefore that my quoting a black man is "cliche" is also borderline racist... Would it have been better if I quoted Ghandi? Jesus? Which leaders espousing views of peace, justice, and understanding in the face of adversity would you prefer I'd have quoted, given your assumptions about my gender and ethnicity?