5 ms·

I'm wondering how programmers who've made coding their life view newbies whose only experience is from a bootcamp.

cuckcuckspruce 11y ago
Speaking for myself only: I think it's great. It's the same view that I have toward people who learn my native language as their second language - it opens up a path of communication with them that I did not have before.
- oldprog11 11y ago
  These people are going to be competing directly with you for jobs; the net effect of this will be downward pressure on our already flat wages, and probably also lower quality software (due to bootcamp grads being incompetent and only in it for the money). And you think this is great?
  - trowawee 11y ago
    Yeah, no bootcamp grads like to code, or code in their free time, or do any self-teaching. They're all just in it for the money. Not like you, right? You're not in it for the money; heck, you'd keep working at your company even if they cut your salary in half tomorrow. ETA: Also, they're all incompetent! And not one of these people hiring them has noticed. Helluva con job.
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    I think competition is always great. It sharpens me. I also don't feel entitled to the jobs I want unless I'm a top performer. So yeah, some of us do think it's great, actually.
  - cuckcuckspruce 11y ago
    >These people are going to be competing directly with you for jobs Okay, and? There's already a lot of competition out there for jobs. A little more won't hurt. Being a programmer is not like being part of a religious order. We don't need to weed out those who speak orthodoxy to the preisthood. >probably also lower quality software (due to bootcamp grads being incompetent and only in it for the money) Do plumbers that go into it for the money necessarily produce inferior work product? Do mechanics? There are a whole set of professions that have to deal with this already, and there's no evidence that it produces inferior product. >And you think this is great? I think anybody doing what they want to, so long as it does not harm themselves or anybody else, is great.
patio11 11y ago
Junior developers are junior developers: regardless of whether they've been coding since age eight, started in college and graduated with a CS degree, or bounced around odd jobs before doing a bootcamp, you can't let their code near production without substantial oversight from more senior developers. (I fit into the first bucket and it is frankly amazing to me that they let me touch a keyboard at all in my first two years in industry. I used to pronounce projects done which did not compile, as a result of "just one quick fix" on the last day.) Engineering organizations either a) understand this fact and build teams around it, b) accept that their salary floor is now +/- $140k or so (in Silicon Valley), or c) whine incessantly about the engineering shortage.
- ghufran_syed 11y ago
  I'm curious, was this in the context of a system that took a really long time to compile, or just an oversight?
planfaster 11y ago
Speaking as a self-taught programmer since I was in my early teens: I have nothing against it, some of my coworkers are bootcamp grads and I make sure they know I am available to help them. I also pull them aside to show some tricks or things to pay attention to. Who is the lifelong programmer that dislikes showing others what they know about their favorite thing? Not me.
- WalterBright 11y ago
  > Who is the lifelong programmer that dislikes showing others what they know about their favorite thing? Not me. I used to hide tricks I'd do to extract more performance. Not any more. I tell people till I'm blue in the face how to do it, and they never figure it out :-)
joslin01 11y ago
As a CTO, I strictly will not hire them. They have an incredibly basic outlook unless they really do their homework and apply themselves. I'll take the college grad with good fundamentals and decent coding skills over the bootcamp grad with hardly any fundamentals and an overinflated confidence in knowing how to code (thanks to the bootcamps' marketing BS). I'm sure many of you think I'm coming across as harsh, but actually my first company took on three apprentices with similar backgrounds and we paid the cost. Never again is all I can say. Let other start ups and businesses throw the dice, but I'll take a foreign (cheap) freelancer in the interim of looking for a real onsite dev. There's a very good chance the foreign coder is more skilled than any of these boot campers.
- unethical_ban 11y ago
  I absolutely think you're being harsh. I am not saying you're wrong, but it seems judgmental to deny bootcampers the opportunity to prove themselves.
  - joslin01 11y ago
    That's ok if you think that, but look at it from the perspective of time management. I don't have all the time in the world to give everyone a chance. I would love to, but I can't and so a simple rule like "No bootcampers" is an effective filtering mechanism. With a little patience, I find better talent rather than forcing myself to hunt for potential in anyone who applies. To be honest, I find it presumptuous that I should be giving them a chance. I went to school to get to where I needed to be. I had to pay off student loans. I had to learn data structures, compilers, and all sorts of advanced things that I don't use on an everyday basis (but no doubt help me). Who are you to say I'm being harsh in denying the get-rich-schemers of the bootcamping world for the diligent one-step-at-a-time college folk? And of course that's a generalization.. so please, let's not say "but there's always exceptions."
    - thatswrong0 11y ago
      That just sounds like entitlement to me. "I had to go through a longer, more expensive program, and learned harder things, therefore, why do they deserve to be given the chances I was?" It doesn't matter what you had to go through - what matters is whether you are capable to do the job. I went through a 4-year program. I'm a programmer at a startup. I use very little of any knowledge I acquired at school on a daily basis. Graphics? Compilers? Advanced algorithms? Nope. I just need to solve relatively simple problems and write code that's maintainable. The second part you don't learn in school - in fact, you probably learn the opposite. The first part requires a bit of a shift in thinking if you've never programmed before.. Hence bootcamps. I'm not deluded into thinking I'm really that much more capable at doing my job than someone who spent less time learning not-so-practical things. Obviously this depends on what you're doing - bootcampers can't just go be machine learning experts. But web devs? Of course. I've interviewed people from 4 year programs, and I've interviewed bootcampers. My guesses on their respective resumes pretty much matched up with how I graded them on their interviews. In both groups, you have the people who get it, and the people who don't. Obviously, the percentage was higher in the CS education group than the bootcamp group. But there are some really good bootcampers. There's also lazy fucks (get-rich-schemers) in both crowds. And I can tell the difference pretty easily in resumes. It's fine that you have that heuristic - if you're running a tight ship and can't afford the time, then that makes sense. But to justify it like that is a bit silly.
munchbunny 11y ago
They're junior. They might be very smart and have tons of potential, but they're junior and will take substantial time to season into skilled programmers. It's the classic salary vs. experience tradeoff: you pay less in salary and pay more in training and oversight until they become seasoned programmers. But if you choose to ignore the part where they've been coding for maybe 12 weeks, you're in for a world of hurt.
morgante 11y ago
I think their salaries answer that for you. People who have been coding for years make well more than $64k, even in entry-level positions. Coding bootcamps are essentially the nursing equivalent to doctors. They graduate people who can do an adequate job of their specific role and certainly can be helpful on a team, but you don't put them in charge of the project.
- trowawee 11y ago
  It is almost like bootcamp grads have not been programming for years. If only we had a word we could use to describe people relatively new to the profession, a keyword that we could use to compare reported salaries across areas and see if what you said is true or not. Somebody oughta build a system like that. It'd be neat.
Elizer0x0309 11y ago
I don't touch them, but that's because my field is MachineLearing/AI and graphics/game-engine programming. I understand for webapps companies. (although the bubble has or will burst soonerish)
pnathan 11y ago
Not just junior (i.e., fresh grad), but ridiculously junior, at the level of a freshman in college, well below the par for an intern. I don't dislike or like them: I know that they are incredibly junior. I would prefer to work with people more experienced, given the option. If the project allows for inexperience and has the ramp-up time needed, they can do it. The management must understand that the bootcamp graduates are going to take significant time and cost to come up to speed. The bootcamp grad must be willing to drink from a firehose, though... If all of that is satisfied, then sure, I'll work with them. As part of the mentoring process, I will pass them CS books: algorithms, data structures, and other key fundamentals of the field, and expect them to come up to speed on the fundamentals. They need to know this stuff to do the job well; I will explicitly refer to their willingness to learn the fundamentals in my peer evaluations with our manager.

Speaking for myself only: I think it's great. It's the same view that I have toward people who learn my native language as their second language - it opens up a path of communication with them that I did not have before.

oldprog11 11y ago
These people are going to be competing directly with you for jobs; the net effect of this will be downward pressure on our already flat wages, and probably also lower quality software (due to bootcamp grads being incompetent and only in it for the money). And you think this is great?
- trowawee 11y ago
  Yeah, no bootcamp grads like to code, or code in their free time, or do any self-teaching. They're all just in it for the money. Not like you, right? You're not in it for the money; heck, you'd keep working at your company even if they cut your salary in half tomorrow. ETA: Also, they're all incompetent! And not one of these people hiring them has noticed. Helluva con job.
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  I think competition is always great. It sharpens me. I also don't feel entitled to the jobs I want unless I'm a top performer. So yeah, some of us do think it's great, actually.
- cuckcuckspruce 11y ago
  >These people are going to be competing directly with you for jobs Okay, and? There's already a lot of competition out there for jobs. A little more won't hurt. Being a programmer is not like being part of a religious order. We don't need to weed out those who speak orthodoxy to the preisthood. >probably also lower quality software (due to bootcamp grads being incompetent and only in it for the money) Do plumbers that go into it for the money necessarily produce inferior work product? Do mechanics? There are a whole set of professions that have to deal with this already, and there's no evidence that it produces inferior product. >And you think this is great? I think anybody doing what they want to, so long as it does not harm themselves or anybody else, is great.

patio11 11y ago

Junior developers are junior developers: regardless of whether they've been coding since age eight, started in college and graduated with a CS degree, or bounced around odd jobs before doing a bootcamp, you can't let their code near production without substantial oversight from more senior developers. (I fit into the first bucket and it is frankly amazing to me that they let me touch a keyboard at all in my first two years in industry. I used to pronounce projects done which did not compile, as a result of "just one quick fix" on the last day.) Engineering organizations either a) understand this fact and build teams around it, b) accept that their salary floor is now +/- $140k or so (in Silicon Valley), or c) whine incessantly about the engineering shortage.

ghufran_syed 11y ago
I'm curious, was this in the context of a system that took a really long time to compile, or just an oversight?

planfaster 11y ago

Speaking as a self-taught programmer since I was in my early teens: I have nothing against it, some of my coworkers are bootcamp grads and I make sure they know I am available to help them. I also pull them aside to show some tricks or things to pay attention to. Who is the lifelong programmer that dislikes showing others what they know about their favorite thing? Not me.

WalterBright 11y ago
> Who is the lifelong programmer that dislikes showing others what they know about their favorite thing? Not me. I used to hide tricks I'd do to extract more performance. Not any more. I tell people till I'm blue in the face how to do it, and they never figure it out :-)

joslin01 11y ago

As a CTO, I strictly will not hire them. They have an incredibly basic outlook unless they really do their homework and apply themselves. I'll take the college grad with good fundamentals and decent coding skills over the bootcamp grad with hardly any fundamentals and an overinflated confidence in knowing how to code (thanks to the bootcamps' marketing BS). I'm sure many of you think I'm coming across as harsh, but actually my first company took on three apprentices with similar backgrounds and we paid the cost. Never again is all I can say. Let other start ups and businesses throw the dice, but I'll take a foreign (cheap) freelancer in the interim of looking for a real onsite dev. There's a very good chance the foreign coder is more skilled than any of these boot campers.

unethical_ban 11y ago
I absolutely think you're being harsh. I am not saying you're wrong, but it seems judgmental to deny bootcampers the opportunity to prove themselves.
- joslin01 11y ago
  That's ok if you think that, but look at it from the perspective of time management. I don't have all the time in the world to give everyone a chance. I would love to, but I can't and so a simple rule like "No bootcampers" is an effective filtering mechanism. With a little patience, I find better talent rather than forcing myself to hunt for potential in anyone who applies. To be honest, I find it presumptuous that I should be giving them a chance. I went to school to get to where I needed to be. I had to pay off student loans. I had to learn data structures, compilers, and all sorts of advanced things that I don't use on an everyday basis (but no doubt help me). Who are you to say I'm being harsh in denying the get-rich-schemers of the bootcamping world for the diligent one-step-at-a-time college folk? And of course that's a generalization.. so please, let's not say "but there's always exceptions."
  - thatswrong0 11y ago
    That just sounds like entitlement to me. "I had to go through a longer, more expensive program, and learned harder things, therefore, why do they deserve to be given the chances I was?" It doesn't matter what you had to go through - what matters is whether you are capable to do the job. I went through a 4-year program. I'm a programmer at a startup. I use very little of any knowledge I acquired at school on a daily basis. Graphics? Compilers? Advanced algorithms? Nope. I just need to solve relatively simple problems and write code that's maintainable. The second part you don't learn in school - in fact, you probably learn the opposite. The first part requires a bit of a shift in thinking if you've never programmed before.. Hence bootcamps. I'm not deluded into thinking I'm really that much more capable at doing my job than someone who spent less time learning not-so-practical things. Obviously this depends on what you're doing - bootcampers can't just go be machine learning experts. But web devs? Of course. I've interviewed people from 4 year programs, and I've interviewed bootcampers. My guesses on their respective resumes pretty much matched up with how I graded them on their interviews. In both groups, you have the people who get it, and the people who don't. Obviously, the percentage was higher in the CS education group than the bootcamp group. But there are some really good bootcampers. There's also lazy fucks (get-rich-schemers) in both crowds. And I can tell the difference pretty easily in resumes. It's fine that you have that heuristic - if you're running a tight ship and can't afford the time, then that makes sense. But to justify it like that is a bit silly.

munchbunny 11y ago

They're junior. They might be very smart and have tons of potential, but they're junior and will take substantial time to season into skilled programmers. It's the classic salary vs. experience tradeoff: you pay less in salary and pay more in training and oversight until they become seasoned programmers. But if you choose to ignore the part where they've been coding for maybe 12 weeks, you're in for a world of hurt.

morgante 11y ago

I think their salaries answer that for you. People who have been coding for years make well more than $64k, even in entry-level positions. Coding bootcamps are essentially the nursing equivalent to doctors. They graduate people who can do an adequate job of their specific role and certainly can be helpful on a team, but you don't put them in charge of the project.

trowawee 11y ago
It is almost like bootcamp grads have not been programming for years. If only we had a word we could use to describe people relatively new to the profession, a keyword that we could use to compare reported salaries across areas and see if what you said is true or not. Somebody oughta build a system like that. It'd be neat.

Elizer0x0309 11y ago

I don't touch them, but that's because my field is MachineLearing/AI and graphics/game-engine programming. I understand for webapps companies. (although the bubble has or will burst soonerish)

pnathan 11y ago

Not just junior (i.e., fresh grad), but ridiculously junior, at the level of a freshman in college, well below the par for an intern. I don't dislike or like them: I know that they are incredibly junior. I would prefer to work with people more experienced, given the option. If the project allows for inexperience and has the ramp-up time needed, they can do it. The management must understand that the bootcamp graduates are going to take significant time and cost to come up to speed. The bootcamp grad must be willing to drink from a firehose, though... If all of that is satisfied, then sure, I'll work with them. As part of the mentoring process, I will pass them CS books: algorithms, data structures, and other key fundamentals of the field, and expect them to come up to speed on the fundamentals. They need to know this stuff to do the job well; I will explicitly refer to their willingness to learn the fundamentals in my peer evaluations with our manager.