5 ms·

Car CNG conversion licenses cost $10k from the EPA

20 points by paddy_m 17y ago

ams6110 17y ago
The existence of absurd EPA regulations is not a surprise. However the claim that a car can be converted to CNG for "a few hundred dollars in parts and labor" is unbelievable. You can't just throw a couple of barbeque grill tanks in the trunk. A DOT-approved CNG tank will be roughly $2000 - $3000 all by itself, based on prices at http://www.cngconversionsonline.com/ http://www.cngconversionsonline.com/ Add in other parts and labor and I'd ballpark it at around $5,000 minimum. And it has to be done properly: you don't want a CNG leak in your garage overnight. Some sort of certification of installers is warranted.
- dchest 17y ago
  It costs "a few hundred dollars in parts and labor" in Moscow, Russia ($400 [Lada] - $1500 [Chevrolet Suburban], Russian, Polish, and Italian parts), based on price lists on the web. Labor is cheaper here, but it takes from 4 (most cases) to 12 (non-standard cases) hours to install.
  - khafra 17y ago
    You're also probably ok without an EPA license in Russia or India. The complaint's probably valid in the context where it matters. But either way--taxing 300% or 3,000%--that's a travesty for an organization that's purportedly dedicated to preserving the environment.
    - FraaJad 17y ago
      New vehicles in India have to confirm to a Euro IV emission standards (equivalent). GM sells an LPG version of a small city car in India [1]. Just so that you understand the level of market awareness and "capitalism" in play. [1] http://indianautosblog.com/2009/06/chevrolet-spark-lpg-launched-in-delhi-price-and-specification http://indianautosblog.com/2009/06/chevrolet-spark-lpg-launc...
- FraaJad 17y ago
  Factory(OEM) fitted LNG/CNG cars are sold in India for less than $1000 premium over gasoline versions. Most of the non-factory fitted,quality certified, govt-regulated, certified mechanic installed gas kits cost in the same ball park range. $5,000 is the price of a entry level Suzuki van with a factory fitted LPG kit ;).
- dazzla 17y ago
  However much the parts and labor costs the licensing fee adds $10k which is very significant.
- awa 17y ago
  In India, a hack conversion (not approved by government) costs about $200 in parts + labor (not including the tank). And yes they use a domestic gas tank (similar to barbeque grill tank) kept in the trunk.
  - mmt 17y ago
    It's important to note that LPG (liquefied petroleum gas, mostly propane) is very much not the same thing as CNG (compressed natural gas) from an engineering perspective. CNG tanks have to keep much higher pressures and are therefore quite a bit more expensive. As a previous commenter noted, $2k-$3k just for the tank is about right, at least for a new, light unit. If you're willing to go the solid steel route, you can probably still get something old and heavy [1] for under $1k, but good luck finding capacity at under $100/GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent). Lastly, there's the safety question. Currently, CNG cars have remarkably good real-world crash experience. I don't believe there's a single tank burst or fire in a collision [2]. I'd be curious to know if other countries, with more lax regulations, have as good safety statistics. TANSTAAFL LNG (liquefied natural gas) is also quite different from LPG. I've looked into it, if only as an emergency reserve fuel tank. Turns out that to store it indefinitely requires refrigeration (or, presumably, absurd amounts of insulation), else it'll boil off, escaping out the pressure relief valve installed in the tank for just such an eventuality. Fortunately, like a pot of water on a stove, it doesn't all boil off at once, so there's little risk of leakage if one always uses enough vapor to keep the pressure down. [1] To the tune of hundreds of pounds. This is less likely to be a concern for converting trucks, but I notice a fuel economy difference carrying just one adult passenger in my Civic GX. [2] I haven't looked this up in the last 3 years or so. Corrections/updates are appreciated. Edit: added paragraph on LNG.
    - awa 17y ago
      http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/%5Ccng-conversion-to-help-autorickshaw-owners%5C/184257/ http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/%5Ccng-conversio... CNG conversion kits costs about Rs 20000 (approx $400) according to the above article
      - 17y ago
bioweek 17y ago
Why would natural gas make less carbon emissions?
- mmt 17y ago
  Short answer: because it has a lower carbon:hydrogen ratio. NG is mostly methane (minimum 88% if I recall the stickers on the PG&E "pumps"), with 1 carbon and 4 hydrogens. The rest is made up primarily of also fairly short (2-4 carbon) chain hydrocarbons. Traditional gasoline is heptane (7 carbon) and octane (8 carbon). Methane's ratio is 0.25. Heptane's ratio is 0.4375, and octane's is 0.4444. (Longer chains asymptotically approach 0.5).
  - ams6110 17y ago
    But, you'll burn more methane than gasoline to get the same energy. I wonder how close it ends up in reality.
    - mmt 17y ago
      Acutally, it's the other way around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent#cite_note-0 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent#cite... CNG is 5.660 pounds (2.567kg) per GGE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Density http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Density Gasoline is 6.073 pounds (2.755kg) per gallon. I get the same economy (30-33 mpgge) in my Civic GX as in my gasoline Civic. However, let's compare carbons based on molar mass (16.042 g/mol for methane and 100.21 g/mol for heptane and octane is 114.23g/mol). That's 160 moles of methane per GGE and 27.5 moles of heptane per gallon. That's a ratio of 160:192 of carbons. For octane, that's 24 moles per gallon, about the same ratio. It's not 1:4, granted, but these are just hand-wavey approximations for the gasoline, which has the added complication of ethanol. I'm also assuming complete burning, which is patently false, considering that, before modern emissions controls, it was possible to commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning from engine exhaust. Edit: Molar mass

20 points by paddy_m 17y ago

The existence of absurd EPA regulations is not a surprise. However the claim that a car can be converted to CNG for "a few hundred dollars in parts and labor" is unbelievable. You can't just throw a couple of barbeque grill tanks in the trunk. A DOT-approved CNG tank will be roughly $2000 - $3000 all by itself, based on prices at http://www.cngconversionsonline.com/ http://www.cngconversionsonline.com/ Add in other parts and labor and I'd ballpark it at around $5,000 minimum. And it has to be done properly: you don't want a CNG leak in your garage overnight. Some sort of certification of installers is warranted.

dchest 17y ago
It costs "a few hundred dollars in parts and labor" in Moscow, Russia ($400 [Lada] - $1500 [Chevrolet Suburban], Russian, Polish, and Italian parts), based on price lists on the web. Labor is cheaper here, but it takes from 4 (most cases) to 12 (non-standard cases) hours to install.
- khafra 17y ago
  You're also probably ok without an EPA license in Russia or India. The complaint's probably valid in the context where it matters. But either way--taxing 300% or 3,000%--that's a travesty for an organization that's purportedly dedicated to preserving the environment.
  - FraaJad 17y ago
    New vehicles in India have to confirm to a Euro IV emission standards (equivalent). GM sells an LPG version of a small city car in India [1]. Just so that you understand the level of market awareness and "capitalism" in play. [1] http://indianautosblog.com/2009/06/chevrolet-spark-lpg-launched-in-delhi-price-and-specification http://indianautosblog.com/2009/06/chevrolet-spark-lpg-launc...
FraaJad 17y ago
Factory(OEM) fitted LNG/CNG cars are sold in India for less than $1000 premium over gasoline versions. Most of the non-factory fitted,quality certified, govt-regulated, certified mechanic installed gas kits cost in the same ball park range. $5,000 is the price of a entry level Suzuki van with a factory fitted LPG kit ;).
dazzla 17y ago
However much the parts and labor costs the licensing fee adds $10k which is very significant.
awa 17y ago
In India, a hack conversion (not approved by government) costs about $200 in parts + labor (not including the tank). And yes they use a domestic gas tank (similar to barbeque grill tank) kept in the trunk.
- mmt 17y ago
  It's important to note that LPG (liquefied petroleum gas, mostly propane) is very much not the same thing as CNG (compressed natural gas) from an engineering perspective. CNG tanks have to keep much higher pressures and are therefore quite a bit more expensive. As a previous commenter noted, $2k-$3k just for the tank is about right, at least for a new, light unit. If you're willing to go the solid steel route, you can probably still get something old and heavy [1] for under $1k, but good luck finding capacity at under $100/GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent). Lastly, there's the safety question. Currently, CNG cars have remarkably good real-world crash experience. I don't believe there's a single tank burst or fire in a collision [2]. I'd be curious to know if other countries, with more lax regulations, have as good safety statistics. TANSTAAFL LNG (liquefied natural gas) is also quite different from LPG. I've looked into it, if only as an emergency reserve fuel tank. Turns out that to store it indefinitely requires refrigeration (or, presumably, absurd amounts of insulation), else it'll boil off, escaping out the pressure relief valve installed in the tank for just such an eventuality. Fortunately, like a pot of water on a stove, it doesn't all boil off at once, so there's little risk of leakage if one always uses enough vapor to keep the pressure down. [1] To the tune of hundreds of pounds. This is less likely to be a concern for converting trucks, but I notice a fuel economy difference carrying just one adult passenger in my Civic GX. [2] I haven't looked this up in the last 3 years or so. Corrections/updates are appreciated. Edit: added paragraph on LNG.
  - awa 17y ago
    http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/%5Ccng-conversion-to-help-autorickshaw-owners%5C/184257/ http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/%5Ccng-conversio... CNG conversion kits costs about Rs 20000 (approx $400) according to the above article
    - 17y ago

bioweek 17y ago

Why would natural gas make less carbon emissions?

mmt 17y ago
Short answer: because it has a lower carbon:hydrogen ratio. NG is mostly methane (minimum 88% if I recall the stickers on the PG&E "pumps"), with 1 carbon and 4 hydrogens. The rest is made up primarily of also fairly short (2-4 carbon) chain hydrocarbons. Traditional gasoline is heptane (7 carbon) and octane (8 carbon). Methane's ratio is 0.25. Heptane's ratio is 0.4375, and octane's is 0.4444. (Longer chains asymptotically approach 0.5).
- ams6110 17y ago
  But, you'll burn more methane than gasoline to get the same energy. I wonder how close it ends up in reality.
  - mmt 17y ago
    Acutally, it's the other way around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent#cite_note-0 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent#cite... CNG is 5.660 pounds (2.567kg) per GGE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Density http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Density Gasoline is 6.073 pounds (2.755kg) per gallon. I get the same economy (30-33 mpgge) in my Civic GX as in my gasoline Civic. However, let's compare carbons based on molar mass (16.042 g/mol for methane and 100.21 g/mol for heptane and octane is 114.23g/mol). That's 160 moles of methane per GGE and 27.5 moles of heptane per gallon. That's a ratio of 160:192 of carbons. For octane, that's 24 moles per gallon, about the same ratio. It's not 1:4, granted, but these are just hand-wavey approximations for the gasoline, which has the added complication of ethanol. I'm also assuming complete burning, which is patently false, considering that, before modern emissions controls, it was possible to commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning from engine exhaust. Edit: Molar mass