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I don't think being a "special ops" company is actually necessary, at all. For a high growth startup, you do not need everyone to work 12 hour days and fight e

I don't think being a "special ops" company is actually necessary, at all. For a high growth startup, you do not need everyone to work 12 hour days and fight each other to move up. It causes burnout, unethical decisions, and corporate resentment. Hire smart people, treat them like human beings. If you're constantly working 12 hour days in a tech company, either you or your manager are doing something wrong.

AndrewKemendo 11y ago
If you're constantly working 12 hour days in a tech company, either you or your manager are doing something wrong. Disagree. We have 4 people. We have the money for 4 people. We have the workload of probably 8 people. If I don't put those hours in, things don't get done that need to for us to stay alive. I'm wasting my time right now responding to this because I think it's an important discussion. That just means I'll get 4 instead of 5 hours of sleep tonight. I have two 15-20 slide decks to finish tonight: 1 for our board meeting tomorrow and another due tomorrow morning for an Angel pitch on Wednesday. I also just hung up from a technical call, cause we are trying to push a new release to the app store tonight. I still have to review some cards in leankit and respond to a handful of emails from today.
- mistermann 11y ago
  Not buying the HN gospel that it's literally impossible to be productive for more than 8 hours a day eh? :)
  - AndrewKemendo 11y ago
    20% productivity is better than 0%
    - Apocryphon 11y ago
      It fast becomes 0% when people then burn out and drop out. Sure you can then hire new people to refill the ranks, but I don't think corporate cultures modeled after meat grinders are any more effect than militaries modeled after the same.
      - mistermann 11y ago
        This is most definitely something to pay very close attention to, but it doesn't always happen.
- blackguardx 11y ago
  No one is talking about limiting high ranking employers/founders to 8 hours. They should work as much as they want because their efforts directly lead to financial gain for themselves (due to large stock holdings, etc). The problem comes when the bottom of the barrel people are working those same hours. Working 80 hour weeks doesn't really help them unless they really like doing it. Some people legitimately like work. That's great. They shouldn't set the bar, though.
  - AndrewKemendo 11y ago
    This is exactly the point though, don't hire "bottom of the barrel people" into such an organization. They should be working someplace where they can comfortably be marginally talented.
    - saryant 11y ago
      > This is exactly the point though, don't hire "bottom of the barrel people" into such an organization. The corollary of this, in a startup, would be don't expect great employees to work 10+ hours a day for 0.5%. If you expect people to put in that same level of effort, compensate them to the same degree. Meanwhile those of us who've already been through that meat grinder will be enjoying our 9-5 and large salary, regardless your baseless slight about being "marginally talented."
      - AndrewKemendo 11y ago
        The corollary of this, in a startup, would be don't expect great employees to work 10+ hours a day for 0.5%. Can't agree with this enough - it's the same reason Special Operators get a shitload of incentive/hazard duty pay and signing bonuses. Meanwhile those of us who've already been through that meat grinder will be enjoying our 9-5 and large salary, regardless your baseless slight about being "marginally talented." I was simply responding to the OP's "Bottom of the barrel" comment.
        deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
ryanmarsh 11y ago
8 hours days in a toxic environment can lead to burnout way faster than 12 hours a day when everyone believes in the mission and feels supported by one another
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

AndrewKemendo 11y ago

If you're constantly working 12 hour days in a tech company, either you or your manager are doing something wrong. Disagree. We have 4 people. We have the money for 4 people. We have the workload of probably 8 people. If I don't put those hours in, things don't get done that need to for us to stay alive. I'm wasting my time right now responding to this because I think it's an important discussion. That just means I'll get 4 instead of 5 hours of sleep tonight. I have two 15-20 slide decks to finish tonight: 1 for our board meeting tomorrow and another due tomorrow morning for an Angel pitch on Wednesday. I also just hung up from a technical call, cause we are trying to push a new release to the app store tonight. I still have to review some cards in leankit and respond to a handful of emails from today.

mistermann 11y ago
Not buying the HN gospel that it's literally impossible to be productive for more than 8 hours a day eh? :)
- AndrewKemendo 11y ago
  20% productivity is better than 0%
  - Apocryphon 11y ago
    It fast becomes 0% when people then burn out and drop out. Sure you can then hire new people to refill the ranks, but I don't think corporate cultures modeled after meat grinders are any more effect than militaries modeled after the same.
    - mistermann 11y ago
      This is most definitely something to pay very close attention to, but it doesn't always happen.
blackguardx 11y ago
No one is talking about limiting high ranking employers/founders to 8 hours. They should work as much as they want because their efforts directly lead to financial gain for themselves (due to large stock holdings, etc). The problem comes when the bottom of the barrel people are working those same hours. Working 80 hour weeks doesn't really help them unless they really like doing it. Some people legitimately like work. That's great. They shouldn't set the bar, though.
- AndrewKemendo 11y ago
  This is exactly the point though, don't hire "bottom of the barrel people" into such an organization. They should be working someplace where they can comfortably be marginally talented.
  - saryant 11y ago
    > This is exactly the point though, don't hire "bottom of the barrel people" into such an organization. The corollary of this, in a startup, would be don't expect great employees to work 10+ hours a day for 0.5%. If you expect people to put in that same level of effort, compensate them to the same degree. Meanwhile those of us who've already been through that meat grinder will be enjoying our 9-5 and large salary, regardless your baseless slight about being "marginally talented."
    - AndrewKemendo 11y ago
      The corollary of this, in a startup, would be don't expect great employees to work 10+ hours a day for 0.5%. Can't agree with this enough - it's the same reason Special Operators get a shitload of incentive/hazard duty pay and signing bonuses. Meanwhile those of us who've already been through that meat grinder will be enjoying our 9-5 and large salary, regardless your baseless slight about being "marginally talented." I was simply responding to the OP's "Bottom of the barrel" comment.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]

ryanmarsh 11y ago

8 hours days in a toxic environment can lead to burnout way faster than 12 hours a day when everyone believes in the mission and feels supported by one another

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]