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I take it you're not from the Eurozone, because this is no laughing matter. It is kind of like FED deciding not to provide dollar liquidity to, say, California

I take it you're not from the Eurozone, because this is no laughing matter. It is kind of like FED deciding not to provide dollar liquidity to, say, California, just because people didn't recall Joseph Davis.

vinceguidry 11y ago
It's nothing like that. California is a part of the United States. Greece is a sovereign country, it does whatever it wants. The economic integration between Greece and the rest of the Eurozone is nothing like the integration between California and the rest of the US. If we loan money to Greece, they can simply decide not to pay us back. Historically, this happens a lot, particularly with war debts. Traditionally, terms on nation-to-nation loans have pretty much always included political concessions. If Greece needs Germany's money, Germany is well-within their purview to demand political concessions, running the risk of having them elect a new government that will simply decide not to pay them back or adhere to the concessions. It's a game states have played since the Middle Ages. What I took away from the Jacobin article is that the US is often in the position of being a pay-day loan provider to crazy regimes that do awful things to get in power. We often simply aren't in the position to take the high road, and so we must do the best we can to promote our own interests by favoring one genocidal jackass over another. Politics is not pretty. Bolivia deciding they don't need our money anymore is exactly how it's supposed to work. Your jackass son decided he doesn't need daddy's money anymore and goes out and gets a job and starts paying his own rent. That's a way more preferable outcome for them, even if we pout over the loss of another puppet.
- asgard1024 11y ago
  > Greece is a sovereign country Not quite, being a member of monetary union. Of course, it would be better not to have the hybrid that is Eurozone, but that's the situation. > If we loan money to Greece, they can simply decide not to pay us back No, they can't. If they would, they would indeed have to leave the Eurozone. (Although, absurdly enough, it was Greece that canceled German debt after WW2.) The disagreement wasn't over whether Greece should pay debt; it was over austerity policies, which in fact prevent growth, and make matters worse. The bad investments have already been made, there is no point in trying to "heal" German banks on poor Greeks inside of what is effectively a single economy (Eurozone). In any case, the decision of ECB to stop liquidity to Greece was obviously political (since ECB itself cannot make that decision). That's what problematic. EU is supposed to be a democracy, and (at least) built on consensus of member states.
- pjc50 11y ago
  Bolivia deciding they don't need our money anymore is exactly how it's supposed to work. That's a bit of a simplification, ignoring things like the US having Evo Morales' plane grounded because they suspected Snowden was on board, and the expulsion of the DEA. Also Bolivia has struck gas and wants to keep the money in the country. The accusations that USAID is trying to overthrow the Bolivian government? Well, it's hardly paranoia if it happened to your neighbour. That doesn't make it true but it makes it worth taking very seriously. The US is absolutely not a pay-day lender; it's more of a super-PAC. The money is given for specific political purposes.
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    > The US is absolutely not a pay-day lender; it's more of a super-PAC. The money is given for specific political purposes. I have a better analogy. We're like Tony Soprano. He'll cover your gambling debts, but if you don't pay him back he'll take your car, wreck your business to increase his profits, and ruin your reputation. Don't want him to do that? Pay him back. Better yet, don't gamble.

vinceguidry 11y ago

It's nothing like that. California is a part of the United States. Greece is a sovereign country, it does whatever it wants. The economic integration between Greece and the rest of the Eurozone is nothing like the integration between California and the rest of the US. If we loan money to Greece, they can simply decide not to pay us back. Historically, this happens a lot, particularly with war debts. Traditionally, terms on nation-to-nation loans have pretty much always included political concessions. If Greece needs Germany's money, Germany is well-within their purview to demand political concessions, running the risk of having them elect a new government that will simply decide not to pay them back or adhere to the concessions. It's a game states have played since the Middle Ages. What I took away from the Jacobin article is that the US is often in the position of being a pay-day loan provider to crazy regimes that do awful things to get in power. We often simply aren't in the position to take the high road, and so we must do the best we can to promote our own interests by favoring one genocidal jackass over another. Politics is not pretty. Bolivia deciding they don't need our money anymore is exactly how it's supposed to work. Your jackass son decided he doesn't need daddy's money anymore and goes out and gets a job and starts paying his own rent. That's a way more preferable outcome for them, even if we pout over the loss of another puppet.

asgard1024 11y ago
> Greece is a sovereign country Not quite, being a member of monetary union. Of course, it would be better not to have the hybrid that is Eurozone, but that's the situation. > If we loan money to Greece, they can simply decide not to pay us back No, they can't. If they would, they would indeed have to leave the Eurozone. (Although, absurdly enough, it was Greece that canceled German debt after WW2.) The disagreement wasn't over whether Greece should pay debt; it was over austerity policies, which in fact prevent growth, and make matters worse. The bad investments have already been made, there is no point in trying to "heal" German banks on poor Greeks inside of what is effectively a single economy (Eurozone). In any case, the decision of ECB to stop liquidity to Greece was obviously political (since ECB itself cannot make that decision). That's what problematic. EU is supposed to be a democracy, and (at least) built on consensus of member states.
pjc50 11y ago
Bolivia deciding they don't need our money anymore is exactly how it's supposed to work. That's a bit of a simplification, ignoring things like the US having Evo Morales' plane grounded because they suspected Snowden was on board, and the expulsion of the DEA. Also Bolivia has struck gas and wants to keep the money in the country. The accusations that USAID is trying to overthrow the Bolivian government? Well, it's hardly paranoia if it happened to your neighbour. That doesn't make it true but it makes it worth taking very seriously. The US is absolutely not a pay-day lender; it's more of a super-PAC. The money is given for specific political purposes.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  > The US is absolutely not a pay-day lender; it's more of a super-PAC. The money is given for specific political purposes. I have a better analogy. We're like Tony Soprano. He'll cover your gambling debts, but if you don't pay him back he'll take your car, wreck your business to increase his profits, and ruin your reputation. Don't want him to do that? Pay him back. Better yet, don't gamble.