7 ms·

The Latin America WikiLeaks Files

41 points by cryoshon 11y ago

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
dep_b 11y ago
Pretty heavy if this is true. How reliable is this site?
- onli 11y ago
  That describes normal US-politic in latin-america since at least 60 years, nothing is new. The site seems solid, see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobin_%28magazine%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobin_%28magazine%29, and the facts described are correct (for example the initial description of what happened with Greece is spot-on).
  - bobcostas55 11y ago
    >for example the initial description of what happened with Greece is spot-on lmao
    - asgard1024 11y ago
      I take it you're not from the Eurozone, because this is no laughing matter. It is kind of like FED deciding not to provide dollar liquidity to, say, California, just because people didn't recall Joseph Davis.
      - vinceguidry 11y ago
        It's nothing like that. California is a part of the United States. Greece is a sovereign country, it does whatever it wants. The economic integration between Greece and the rest of the Eurozone is nothing like the integration between California and the rest of the US. If we loan money to Greece, they can simply decide not to pay us back. Historically, this happens a lot, particularly with war debts. Traditionally, terms on nation-to-nation loans have pretty much always included political concessions. If Greece needs Germany's money, Germany is well-within their purview to demand political concessions, running the risk of having them elect a new government that will simply decide not to pay them back or adhere to the concessions. It's a game states have played since the Middle Ages. What I took away from the Jacobin article is that the US is often in the position of being a pay-day loan provider to crazy regimes that do awful things to get in power. We often simply aren't in the position to take the high road, and so we must do the best we can to promote our own interests by favoring one genocidal jackass over another. Politics is not pretty. Bolivia deciding they don't need our money anymore is exactly how it's supposed to work. Your jackass son decided he doesn't need daddy's money anymore and goes out and gets a job and starts paying his own rent. That's a way more preferable outcome for them, even if we pout over the loss of another puppet.
        asgard1024 11y ago
        > Greece is a sovereign country Not quite, being a member of monetary union. Of course, it would be better not to have the hybrid that is Eurozone, but that's the situation. > If we loan money to Greece, they can simply decide not to pay us back No, they can't. If they would, they would indeed have to leave the Eurozone. (Although, absurdly enough, it was Greece that canceled German debt after WW2.) The disagreement wasn't over whether Greece should pay debt; it was over austerity policies, which in fact prevent growth, and make matters worse. The bad investments have already been made, there is no point in trying to "heal" German banks on poor Greeks inside of what is effectively a single economy (Eurozone). In any case, the decision of ECB to stop liquidity to Greece was obviously political (since ECB itself cannot make that decision). That's what problematic. EU is supposed to be a democracy, and (at least) built on consensus of member states.
        pjc50 11y ago
        Bolivia deciding they don't need our money anymore is exactly how it's supposed to work. That's a bit of a simplification, ignoring things like the US having Evo Morales' plane grounded because they suspected Snowden was on board, and the expulsion of the DEA. Also Bolivia has struck gas and wants to keep the money in the country. The accusations that USAID is trying to overthrow the Bolivian government? Well, it's hardly paranoia if it happened to your neighbour. That doesn't make it true but it makes it worth taking very seriously. The US is absolutely not a pay-day lender; it's more of a super-PAC. The money is given for specific political purposes.
        vinceguidry 11y ago
        > The US is absolutely not a pay-day lender; it's more of a super-PAC. The money is given for specific political purposes. I have a better analogy. We're like Tony Soprano. He'll cover your gambling debts, but if you don't pay him back he'll take your car, wreck your business to increase his profits, and ruin your reputation. Don't want him to do that? Pay him back. Better yet, don't gamble.
- cryoshon 11y ago
  The site isn't the thing that matters. Read the documents that WikiLeaks put out. It's the US policy toward Latin America going back a century.
- MatthiasP 11y ago
  It opens with the extreme-left's point of view on Greece. That should give you an idea about the article's reliability and unbiasedness.
  - minimuffins 11y ago
    Jacobin is explicitly socialist. It's no surprise to find "extreme left" bias in a radical left magazine. Bias != "unreliable" though. No institutions exist outside of politics or ideology and the ones that claim to are the most suspect! As a socialist myself I'm happy to see Jacobin referenced here. Maybe a few more tech workers will read it.
mschuster91 11y ago
Nothing new, it's just solid confirmation of what pretty much everyone suspected since long ago :/
jayess 11y ago
As an American I am disturbed by my country's foreign policy as it relates to Latin America, largely over the last half of the 20th century. But propaganda cuts both ways. I have a hard time taking an article like this seriously when it simply hand-waves away the complete meltdown of the Venezuelan economy as a result of "right-wing student protests" and not the complete failed socialism and soft totalitarianism of Chavez. --- "In Venezuela, where a dysfunctional currency control system has generated high inflation, violent right-wing student protests seriously destabilized the country. The odds are extremely high that some of these protestors have received funding and/or training from USAID or NED, which saw its Venezuela budget increase 80 percent from 2012 to 2014."
- onli 11y ago
  That is not what that paragraph says though. Right-wing student protests destablized the countries != right-wing student protests lead to the meltdown of the economy. The dysfunctional currency control system mentioned in the first sentence does stand on its own. The protests came later, in the structure of the text and in reality (as far as I know).
- asgard1024 11y ago
  > But propaganda cuts both ways You are absolutely correct. But wouldn't the U.S. behave badly, people in Venezuela would perhaps have little reason to vote for soft totalitarians like Chavez. (I also think Hitler rose to power partly because he was one of the few politicians who were willing to call BS on the Germany's WW1 debt.) I am not actually sure this will 100% prevents rise of authoritarians (given what is going on in Hungary), however, there is some difference in ideology, and also success, if you compare Marshall doctrine to Washington consensus. Nations get a free pass on behaving badly abroad because of nationalism. Then they get more that they bargained for. Actually, when I think of it, this dynamic is not just between states, it also happens in different social classes as well (for example, policy of being tough on unemployed or drug users, which ultimately makes things worse).
- ttctciyf 11y ago
  In 2002 an Irish documentary team, it seems, "accidentally" covered events surrounding the coup and countercoup of that year in Venezuala[1]. It has some unbelievable footage obtained during critical stages of the events. I don't really know the provenance of the film, but if you take it at face value it has some fairly shocking things to say about the way propaganda and political theatre work out in practice, and touches briefly on the US role in that early attempt to unseat Chavez. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhzoIcIgNrk
werber 11y ago
I personally love the Jacobin, but I wish their tone and vocabulary was more populist..? I always feel like I need to find another article that says the same thing written differently to pass it on to the more conservative people in my life.
- Altay- 11y ago
  I'm subscribed to Jacobin and the writing style certainly feels as though they are preaching to the choir rather than trying to persuade anyone.
marcoperaza 11y ago
The article completely ignores the real reasons for US opposition to Castro, Allende, Chavez, Correa, Morales, et al. They were and are autocrats with programs of economic and social destruction. Critics are beaten and thrown in jail, wide swaths of the economy nationalized, wealth destroyed. Their economic programs lead only to empty shelves in supermarkets and widespread destitution and crime. In Venezuela, the murder rate is up 400-500% from when Chavez first took over. They can only find allies in the world among other enemies of human prosperity. I think JFK captured the guiding principles best: Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty. [...] Let all our neighbors know that we shall join with them to oppose aggression or subversion anywhere in the Americas. And let every other power know that this Hemisphere intends to remain the master of its own house. Sometimes it's led to difficult and morally dubious decisions, like US support for Pinochet's coup against Allende in Chile. But we should consider the counterfactual. What if Allende had stayed in power? Chile would not be the beacon of stability and growth that it is today. Based on Allende's relationships with Castro and the Soviet Union, it would probably be a lot like Castro's Cuba, a society totally hollowed out by communism. As an aside, the characterization of the situation in Greece is completely inaccurate too. Membership in the euroclub requires fiscal responsibility; governments can no longer rely on running the print presses to pay their debt. Greece continued to waste money it did not have, and was refusing the demands for budget discipline from the countries that were keeping it afloat.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  No, the US supported plenty of Latin American autocrats with programs of economic and social destruction -- Noriega, Pinochet, etc. It opposed the ones it opposed for geopolitical and anti-communist ideological reasons, which are also the reasons it supported the ones it supported. Being autocrats with destructive programs wasn't a factor, except insofar as it was a positive factor in that a=corrupt autocrats are simpler to manage as pawns than leaders genuinely concerned with the interests of their people.
  - 11y ago
tremols 11y ago
So this joke repeated through decades never gets old. Its been like 50 years since the times of nationalist dictators, its 50 years ruled by U.S backed leftists, yep.. the same who have created the skirts of misery: ghettos and fabelas. It should be obvious by now that USA will support the left wing if it fits with its agenda. There you have WW2 and polpot to mention just a few extreme historical cases.

41 points by cryoshon 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

dep_b 11y ago

Pretty heavy if this is true. How reliable is this site?

onli 11y ago
That describes normal US-politic in latin-america since at least 60 years, nothing is new. The site seems solid, see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobin_%28magazine%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobin_%28magazine%29, and the facts described are correct (for example the initial description of what happened with Greece is spot-on).
- bobcostas55 11y ago
  >for example the initial description of what happened with Greece is spot-on lmao
  - asgard1024 11y ago
    I take it you're not from the Eurozone, because this is no laughing matter. It is kind of like FED deciding not to provide dollar liquidity to, say, California, just because people didn't recall Joseph Davis.
    - vinceguidry 11y ago
      It's nothing like that. California is a part of the United States. Greece is a sovereign country, it does whatever it wants. The economic integration between Greece and the rest of the Eurozone is nothing like the integration between California and the rest of the US. If we loan money to Greece, they can simply decide not to pay us back. Historically, this happens a lot, particularly with war debts. Traditionally, terms on nation-to-nation loans have pretty much always included political concessions. If Greece needs Germany's money, Germany is well-within their purview to demand political concessions, running the risk of having them elect a new government that will simply decide not to pay them back or adhere to the concessions. It's a game states have played since the Middle Ages. What I took away from the Jacobin article is that the US is often in the position of being a pay-day loan provider to crazy regimes that do awful things to get in power. We often simply aren't in the position to take the high road, and so we must do the best we can to promote our own interests by favoring one genocidal jackass over another. Politics is not pretty. Bolivia deciding they don't need our money anymore is exactly how it's supposed to work. Your jackass son decided he doesn't need daddy's money anymore and goes out and gets a job and starts paying his own rent. That's a way more preferable outcome for them, even if we pout over the loss of another puppet.
      - asgard1024 11y ago
        > Greece is a sovereign country Not quite, being a member of monetary union. Of course, it would be better not to have the hybrid that is Eurozone, but that's the situation. > If we loan money to Greece, they can simply decide not to pay us back No, they can't. If they would, they would indeed have to leave the Eurozone. (Although, absurdly enough, it was Greece that canceled German debt after WW2.) The disagreement wasn't over whether Greece should pay debt; it was over austerity policies, which in fact prevent growth, and make matters worse. The bad investments have already been made, there is no point in trying to "heal" German banks on poor Greeks inside of what is effectively a single economy (Eurozone). In any case, the decision of ECB to stop liquidity to Greece was obviously political (since ECB itself cannot make that decision). That's what problematic. EU is supposed to be a democracy, and (at least) built on consensus of member states.
      - pjc50 11y ago
        Bolivia deciding they don't need our money anymore is exactly how it's supposed to work. That's a bit of a simplification, ignoring things like the US having Evo Morales' plane grounded because they suspected Snowden was on board, and the expulsion of the DEA. Also Bolivia has struck gas and wants to keep the money in the country. The accusations that USAID is trying to overthrow the Bolivian government? Well, it's hardly paranoia if it happened to your neighbour. That doesn't make it true but it makes it worth taking very seriously. The US is absolutely not a pay-day lender; it's more of a super-PAC. The money is given for specific political purposes.
        vinceguidry 11y ago
        > The US is absolutely not a pay-day lender; it's more of a super-PAC. The money is given for specific political purposes. I have a better analogy. We're like Tony Soprano. He'll cover your gambling debts, but if you don't pay him back he'll take your car, wreck your business to increase his profits, and ruin your reputation. Don't want him to do that? Pay him back. Better yet, don't gamble.
cryoshon 11y ago
The site isn't the thing that matters. Read the documents that WikiLeaks put out. It's the US policy toward Latin America going back a century.
MatthiasP 11y ago
It opens with the extreme-left's point of view on Greece. That should give you an idea about the article's reliability and unbiasedness.
- minimuffins 11y ago
  Jacobin is explicitly socialist. It's no surprise to find "extreme left" bias in a radical left magazine. Bias != "unreliable" though. No institutions exist outside of politics or ideology and the ones that claim to are the most suspect! As a socialist myself I'm happy to see Jacobin referenced here. Maybe a few more tech workers will read it.

mschuster91 11y ago

Nothing new, it's just solid confirmation of what pretty much everyone suspected since long ago :/

jayess 11y ago

As an American I am disturbed by my country's foreign policy as it relates to Latin America, largely over the last half of the 20th century. But propaganda cuts both ways. I have a hard time taking an article like this seriously when it simply hand-waves away the complete meltdown of the Venezuelan economy as a result of "right-wing student protests" and not the complete failed socialism and soft totalitarianism of Chavez. --- "In Venezuela, where a dysfunctional currency control system has generated high inflation, violent right-wing student protests seriously destabilized the country. The odds are extremely high that some of these protestors have received funding and/or training from USAID or NED, which saw its Venezuela budget increase 80 percent from 2012 to 2014."

onli 11y ago
That is not what that paragraph says though. Right-wing student protests destablized the countries != right-wing student protests lead to the meltdown of the economy. The dysfunctional currency control system mentioned in the first sentence does stand on its own. The protests came later, in the structure of the text and in reality (as far as I know).
asgard1024 11y ago
> But propaganda cuts both ways You are absolutely correct. But wouldn't the U.S. behave badly, people in Venezuela would perhaps have little reason to vote for soft totalitarians like Chavez. (I also think Hitler rose to power partly because he was one of the few politicians who were willing to call BS on the Germany's WW1 debt.) I am not actually sure this will 100% prevents rise of authoritarians (given what is going on in Hungary), however, there is some difference in ideology, and also success, if you compare Marshall doctrine to Washington consensus. Nations get a free pass on behaving badly abroad because of nationalism. Then they get more that they bargained for. Actually, when I think of it, this dynamic is not just between states, it also happens in different social classes as well (for example, policy of being tough on unemployed or drug users, which ultimately makes things worse).
ttctciyf 11y ago
In 2002 an Irish documentary team, it seems, "accidentally" covered events surrounding the coup and countercoup of that year in Venezuala[1]. It has some unbelievable footage obtained during critical stages of the events. I don't really know the provenance of the film, but if you take it at face value it has some fairly shocking things to say about the way propaganda and political theatre work out in practice, and touches briefly on the US role in that early attempt to unseat Chavez. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhzoIcIgNrk

werber 11y ago

I personally love the Jacobin, but I wish their tone and vocabulary was more populist..? I always feel like I need to find another article that says the same thing written differently to pass it on to the more conservative people in my life.

Altay- 11y ago
I'm subscribed to Jacobin and the writing style certainly feels as though they are preaching to the choir rather than trying to persuade anyone.

marcoperaza 11y ago

The article completely ignores the real reasons for US opposition to Castro, Allende, Chavez, Correa, Morales, et al. They were and are autocrats with programs of economic and social destruction. Critics are beaten and thrown in jail, wide swaths of the economy nationalized, wealth destroyed. Their economic programs lead only to empty shelves in supermarkets and widespread destitution and crime. In Venezuela, the murder rate is up 400-500% from when Chavez first took over. They can only find allies in the world among other enemies of human prosperity. I think JFK captured the guiding principles best: Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty. [...] Let all our neighbors know that we shall join with them to oppose aggression or subversion anywhere in the Americas. And let every other power know that this Hemisphere intends to remain the master of its own house. Sometimes it's led to difficult and morally dubious decisions, like US support for Pinochet's coup against Allende in Chile. But we should consider the counterfactual. What if Allende had stayed in power? Chile would not be the beacon of stability and growth that it is today. Based on Allende's relationships with Castro and the Soviet Union, it would probably be a lot like Castro's Cuba, a society totally hollowed out by communism. As an aside, the characterization of the situation in Greece is completely inaccurate too. Membership in the euroclub requires fiscal responsibility; governments can no longer rely on running the print presses to pay their debt. Greece continued to waste money it did not have, and was refusing the demands for budget discipline from the countries that were keeping it afloat.

dragonwriter 11y ago
No, the US supported plenty of Latin American autocrats with programs of economic and social destruction -- Noriega, Pinochet, etc. It opposed the ones it opposed for geopolitical and anti-communist ideological reasons, which are also the reasons it supported the ones it supported. Being autocrats with destructive programs wasn't a factor, except insofar as it was a positive factor in that a=corrupt autocrats are simpler to manage as pawns than leaders genuinely concerned with the interests of their people.
- 11y ago

tremols 11y ago

So this joke repeated through decades never gets old. Its been like 50 years since the times of nationalist dictators, its 50 years ruled by U.S backed leftists, yep.. the same who have created the skirts of misery: ghettos and fabelas. It should be obvious by now that USA will support the left wing if it fits with its agenda. There you have WW2 and polpot to mention just a few extreme historical cases.