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Answer A: Are you assuming that the philosophy of science is a done thing? It would be wrong to look back from our vantage point and make that conclusion. It ma

Answer A: Are you assuming that the philosophy of science is a done thing? It would be wrong to look back from our vantage point and make that conclusion. It matters not which theoretical improvement or refinement of the scientific method you point to if you forget that. Answer B: Kuhn's text uses the history of science to come to a philosophical (not a scientific) conclusion about scientific progress. Hence, Kuhn's text is philosophy of science and as such your question fails to make the point you think it is making. Now, how about answering my two questions? :)

mannykannot 11y ago
>Are you assuming that the philosophy of science is a done thing? Quite the contrary - I am giving an example that is supportive of the view that, while philosophy was instrumental in the development of the scientific method, it is no longer playing that role, and has not for some time. The second question is another example in the same vein. >Now, how about answering my two questions? You haven't discharged your burden of proof - all you have done so far is to talk around it. In fact, that is all you have done with the two questions I posed, rather than answer them directly.
- igravious 11y ago
  > I am giving an example that is supportive of the view that, while philosophy was instrumental in the development of the scientific method, it is no longer playing that role, and has not for some time. The second question is another example in the same vein. 1st: For example, was science in a state of confusion until Popper corrected the errors of the logical positivists? Ideas concerning the scientific method are less clear before Popper assuming you buy into Popper, that much is true, that much is true of any advancement in the philosophy of science. What is not true is that before an advancement lay confusion and after the removal of confusion. Progress wends its way slowly, incrementally, with ideas gaining clarity bit by bit. So it has gone and presumably so it will continue until someone presents an argument that the process of the improvement in our understanding of the scientific method is complete. That proof is for you or someone to provide, not I a proof of its counter-claim. 2nd: Did the development of plate tectonics have to wait until Kuhn explained the structure of scientific revolutions? No. And you know the answer is no. But so what? If Kuhn is right about how scientific thought progresses it could have an impact on how scientific bodies organise themselves and how funding is allocated and so on, which would have an impact on science at a much larger level than individual hypotheses and theories. Which shows that philosophy of science is still relevant.
  - mannykannot 11y ago
    > Progress wends its way slowly, incrementally, with ideas gaining clarity bit by bit. So it has gone and presumably so it will continue until someone presents an argument that the process of the improvement in our understanding of the scientific method is complete. You have created a straw man in a weak attempt to transfer your burden of proof onto me. The claim of mine, that you are disputing, is that philosophy is not nearly as relevant to science now as it was in science's beginnings. That claim is not predicated in any way on the assumption that our understanding of the scientific method is complete. In your last paragraph, you need to be able to replace all the 'coulds' and 'woulds' with 'dids' and 'does'. As it stands, you have now made three successive posts without putting up an actual argument in support of your position. Furthermore, you would have to show a significance comparable to the achievements of science as a whole - if your claim is that the current contributions of philosophy to science are comparable in significance to an individual hypothesis or theory, then I rest my case.
    - igravious 11y ago
      > You have created a straw man Not intentionally, I assure you. I have repeatedly tried to understand your position and respond exactly to that position. I'm going to give it one more attempt, if this attempt also fails in your eyes then we'll have to agree to disagree, okay? > (1) The claim of mine, that you are disputing, is that philosophy is not nearly as relevant to science now as it was in science's beginnings. That's an odd sentence construction. It could mean either that this is the claim from my point of view I _think_ I am disputing (and it's not) or that this is the claim I _ought to_ be disputing (and I'm not). Witness. A previous stating of the claim by you. > (2) Quite the contrary - I am giving an example that is supportive of the view that, while philosophy was instrumental in the development of the scientific method, it is no longer playing that role, and has not for some time. (By the way. You make claims about philosophy yet use examples from philosophy _of science_ (Popper and Kuhn). If you mean to say `philosophy of science' please say philosophy of science and do not use philosophy as a shorthand. Also, you seem to be using science and `the scientific method' interchangeably. Please don't.) You'll see your claims don't square. I have addressed (2) and am not going to repeat myself. > In your last paragraph, you need to be able to replace all the 'coulds' and 'woulds' with 'dids' and 'does'. As it stands, you have now made three successive posts without putting up an actual argument in support of your position. No I do not. I stated it as a conditional (If Kuhn is right [...] could [...] would [...]) to allow for the position that someone may disagree with Kuhn specifically but it does not invalidate my point in general _if Kuhn is right_. If you keep claiming that I am not addressing the substance of your argument then I am going to have to conclude that you are arguing in bad faith. Hence, one more attempt, okay? > Furthermore, you would have to show a significance comparable to the achievements of science as a whole - if your claim is that the current contributions of philosophy to science are comparable in significance to an individual hypothesis or theory, then I rest my case. I do not have to show any such thing. And I am making no such claim. I am countering your claim, not attempting to make a novel claim of my own.

mannykannot 11y ago

>Are you assuming that the philosophy of science is a done thing? Quite the contrary - I am giving an example that is supportive of the view that, while philosophy was instrumental in the development of the scientific method, it is no longer playing that role, and has not for some time. The second question is another example in the same vein. >Now, how about answering my two questions? You haven't discharged your burden of proof - all you have done so far is to talk around it. In fact, that is all you have done with the two questions I posed, rather than answer them directly.

igravious 11y ago
> I am giving an example that is supportive of the view that, while philosophy was instrumental in the development of the scientific method, it is no longer playing that role, and has not for some time. The second question is another example in the same vein. 1st: For example, was science in a state of confusion until Popper corrected the errors of the logical positivists? Ideas concerning the scientific method are less clear before Popper assuming you buy into Popper, that much is true, that much is true of any advancement in the philosophy of science. What is not true is that before an advancement lay confusion and after the removal of confusion. Progress wends its way slowly, incrementally, with ideas gaining clarity bit by bit. So it has gone and presumably so it will continue until someone presents an argument that the process of the improvement in our understanding of the scientific method is complete. That proof is for you or someone to provide, not I a proof of its counter-claim. 2nd: Did the development of plate tectonics have to wait until Kuhn explained the structure of scientific revolutions? No. And you know the answer is no. But so what? If Kuhn is right about how scientific thought progresses it could have an impact on how scientific bodies organise themselves and how funding is allocated and so on, which would have an impact on science at a much larger level than individual hypotheses and theories. Which shows that philosophy of science is still relevant.
- mannykannot 11y ago
  > Progress wends its way slowly, incrementally, with ideas gaining clarity bit by bit. So it has gone and presumably so it will continue until someone presents an argument that the process of the improvement in our understanding of the scientific method is complete. You have created a straw man in a weak attempt to transfer your burden of proof onto me. The claim of mine, that you are disputing, is that philosophy is not nearly as relevant to science now as it was in science's beginnings. That claim is not predicated in any way on the assumption that our understanding of the scientific method is complete. In your last paragraph, you need to be able to replace all the 'coulds' and 'woulds' with 'dids' and 'does'. As it stands, you have now made three successive posts without putting up an actual argument in support of your position. Furthermore, you would have to show a significance comparable to the achievements of science as a whole - if your claim is that the current contributions of philosophy to science are comparable in significance to an individual hypothesis or theory, then I rest my case.
  - igravious 11y ago
    > You have created a straw man Not intentionally, I assure you. I have repeatedly tried to understand your position and respond exactly to that position. I'm going to give it one more attempt, if this attempt also fails in your eyes then we'll have to agree to disagree, okay? > (1) The claim of mine, that you are disputing, is that philosophy is not nearly as relevant to science now as it was in science's beginnings. That's an odd sentence construction. It could mean either that this is the claim from my point of view I _think_ I am disputing (and it's not) or that this is the claim I _ought to_ be disputing (and I'm not). Witness. A previous stating of the claim by you. > (2) Quite the contrary - I am giving an example that is supportive of the view that, while philosophy was instrumental in the development of the scientific method, it is no longer playing that role, and has not for some time. (By the way. You make claims about philosophy yet use examples from philosophy _of science_ (Popper and Kuhn). If you mean to say `philosophy of science' please say philosophy of science and do not use philosophy as a shorthand. Also, you seem to be using science and `the scientific method' interchangeably. Please don't.) You'll see your claims don't square. I have addressed (2) and am not going to repeat myself. > In your last paragraph, you need to be able to replace all the 'coulds' and 'woulds' with 'dids' and 'does'. As it stands, you have now made three successive posts without putting up an actual argument in support of your position. No I do not. I stated it as a conditional (If Kuhn is right [...] could [...] would [...]) to allow for the position that someone may disagree with Kuhn specifically but it does not invalidate my point in general _if Kuhn is right_. If you keep claiming that I am not addressing the substance of your argument then I am going to have to conclude that you are arguing in bad faith. Hence, one more attempt, okay? > Furthermore, you would have to show a significance comparable to the achievements of science as a whole - if your claim is that the current contributions of philosophy to science are comparable in significance to an individual hypothesis or theory, then I rest my case. I do not have to show any such thing. And I am making no such claim. I am countering your claim, not attempting to make a novel claim of my own.