4 ms·

Of course, and to be fair its much easier for those victims to go to authorities to get help if they're not afraid of getting in trouble for doing something ill

Of course, and to be fair its much easier for those victims to go to authorities to get help if they're not afraid of getting in trouble for doing something illegal. Also to be fair there is less demand for trafficked victims, if others can choose to do so "freely" or in this case with charge....

riffraff 11y ago
Not really, for both points. For the first: they are still afraid of getting in trouble, and their foremost fear is their exploiters, not the police. Being forced into prostitution is not a crime, and they would have always been protected by the police. For the second: there is surely a non-zero amount of people who might have chosen to practice prostitution and didn't do it because of the law. That does not mean that they don't end up being exploited. Many victims of human trafficking might initially agree to participate in a prostitution business, but still end up in an effective slavery condition. The amount of "self employed prostitutes who chose to do it only when it became legal" is higher than zero, but very very tiny. Mind you, I am in favor of legalizing prostitution, I've just grown very disillusioned by the effectiveness of it, though I'm confident things might improve in the next decades.
- ZoeZoeBee 11y ago
  On Both Points, Please provide sources for your claims which go against accepted knowledge. The exploiters do so as a means of earning money, if its legal what use do the prostitutes have for an exploiter? Why not just tell the cops someone is extorting them? Its much easier to go to the cops if what you're doing is not illegal. You don't hear about people going to the cops when they get ripped off trying to purchase something illegal, or have something illegal stolen because doing so is self-incriminating, make it legal see what happens
  - riffraff 11y ago
    What I am saying is accepted knowledge. You can read for example, the article that was on HN some time ago[0] which cites Andrea Matolcsi of Equality Now > She points out that Denmark, which decriminalised prostitution in 1999 – the same year Sweden made the purchase of sex illegal - has four times the number of trafficking victims than its neighbour despite having around half the population. Prostitutes do not need exploiters even if they are illegal. They do not tell the cops because they are effectively unable to leave their exploiters for a ton of reasons, ranging from physical threats to them and their families, to psychological or physical dependency (i.e. they feel they cant go back, "loverboys", drug addiction, fear of "voodoo"), to general fear of authorities ("will I be deported? Will the cops abuse me? What if the cops are partners of my pimp?"). There are a few interesting bits on quora[1] if you want to read more. [0] http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/ http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradi... [1] https://www.quora.com/Where-are-all-the-forced-sex-trafficking-sex-slaves-Why-arent-they-complaining-Why-cant-they-be-found https://www.quora.com/Where-are-all-the-forced-sex-trafficki...
    - ZoeZoeBee 11y ago
      Yeah those links don't even come to close backing up your assertions.... They believe that 95% of the prostitutes in Denmark are already familiar with prostitution when they arrive, know they need to cooperate with pimps to get on, and are not used to working with law enforcement. The police try to establish which of the prostitutes are there legally: those who are not will be transferred to the department that deals with illegal immigrants.
venomsnake 11y ago
Don't forget that there is always market for exploitation itself. The whys of prostitution are more complex than making someone cum - there will always be sick people that enjoy the shadiest of places, exactly because the girls are broken, terrified and so on. Legalization won't help at all with fighting that type of crime.
- bostik 11y ago
  To a degree, true. Making voluntary prostitution both legal and open could (and should) cause the illegal kind to stand out more. So even as the market for exploitation remains the same, it would not be as easily masked by other activities in its respective category. Surely it's a net positive to relieve police forces' resources to investigate and work on things that matter? (I realise there is an almost ironic conflict here: I just categorised voluntary prostitution a non-crime, so I'm as much a biased actor as someone holding the opposite opinion.)
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    I am all for legalization - no adult should be considered criminal for stuff that s/he does with his body voluntarily. Just noting that it won't be a silver bullet in preventing trafficking and suffering. Whether it will make it stand out - I doubt it. Having a legal front will be even easier.

riffraff 11y ago

Not really, for both points. For the first: they are still afraid of getting in trouble, and their foremost fear is their exploiters, not the police. Being forced into prostitution is not a crime, and they would have always been protected by the police. For the second: there is surely a non-zero amount of people who might have chosen to practice prostitution and didn't do it because of the law. That does not mean that they don't end up being exploited. Many victims of human trafficking might initially agree to participate in a prostitution business, but still end up in an effective slavery condition. The amount of "self employed prostitutes who chose to do it only when it became legal" is higher than zero, but very very tiny. Mind you, I am in favor of legalizing prostitution, I've just grown very disillusioned by the effectiveness of it, though I'm confident things might improve in the next decades.

ZoeZoeBee 11y ago
On Both Points, Please provide sources for your claims which go against accepted knowledge. The exploiters do so as a means of earning money, if its legal what use do the prostitutes have for an exploiter? Why not just tell the cops someone is extorting them? Its much easier to go to the cops if what you're doing is not illegal. You don't hear about people going to the cops when they get ripped off trying to purchase something illegal, or have something illegal stolen because doing so is self-incriminating, make it legal see what happens
- riffraff 11y ago
  What I am saying is accepted knowledge. You can read for example, the article that was on HN some time ago[0] which cites Andrea Matolcsi of Equality Now > She points out that Denmark, which decriminalised prostitution in 1999 – the same year Sweden made the purchase of sex illegal - has four times the number of trafficking victims than its neighbour despite having around half the population. Prostitutes do not need exploiters even if they are illegal. They do not tell the cops because they are effectively unable to leave their exploiters for a ton of reasons, ranging from physical threats to them and their families, to psychological or physical dependency (i.e. they feel they cant go back, "loverboys", drug addiction, fear of "voodoo"), to general fear of authorities ("will I be deported? Will the cops abuse me? What if the cops are partners of my pimp?"). There are a few interesting bits on quora[1] if you want to read more. [0] http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/ http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradi... [1] https://www.quora.com/Where-are-all-the-forced-sex-trafficking-sex-slaves-Why-arent-they-complaining-Why-cant-they-be-found https://www.quora.com/Where-are-all-the-forced-sex-trafficki...
  - ZoeZoeBee 11y ago
    Yeah those links don't even come to close backing up your assertions.... They believe that 95% of the prostitutes in Denmark are already familiar with prostitution when they arrive, know they need to cooperate with pimps to get on, and are not used to working with law enforcement. The police try to establish which of the prostitutes are there legally: those who are not will be transferred to the department that deals with illegal immigrants.

venomsnake 11y ago

Don't forget that there is always market for exploitation itself. The whys of prostitution are more complex than making someone cum - there will always be sick people that enjoy the shadiest of places, exactly because the girls are broken, terrified and so on. Legalization won't help at all with fighting that type of crime.

bostik 11y ago
To a degree, true. Making voluntary prostitution both legal and open could (and should) cause the illegal kind to stand out more. So even as the market for exploitation remains the same, it would not be as easily masked by other activities in its respective category. Surely it's a net positive to relieve police forces' resources to investigate and work on things that matter? (I realise there is an almost ironic conflict here: I just categorised voluntary prostitution a non-crime, so I'm as much a biased actor as someone holding the opposite opinion.)
- venomsnake 11y ago
  I am all for legalization - no adult should be considered criminal for stuff that s/he does with his body voluntarily. Just noting that it won't be a silver bullet in preventing trafficking and suffering. Whether it will make it stand out - I doubt it. Having a legal front will be even easier.