4 ms·

The thing is, California died a long time ago. The state which elected Ronald Reagan as governor is long, long gone. I have family there, and every time I vis

by wtbob 11y ago

The thing is, California died a long time ago. The state which elected Ronald Reagan as governor is long, long gone. I have family there, and every time I visit I'm struck by what a bureaucratic nightmare it is: everything is regulated, registered, taxed, adjusted, but most of all controlled. As far as I can tell, from my visits, California is dystopia. A different sort of dystopia than Washington, D.C. or Boston, but a dystopia nonetheless. There's enough money in the world to pay me to live in California, but no-one would pay it to me.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
saryant 11y ago
I grew up in California (north, south and central). I highly doubt I will ever move back. California, in my experience, was filled with hatred and intolerance. Not on the surface, but dig a little deeper, disagree with the hivemind just a little bit and you'll find its friendly veneer quickly fades away to a grim reality. Beyond its never-ending bureaucracy is a politics of the personal that becomes inescapable. All that was left was to leave.
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
>As far as I can tell, from my visits, California is dystopia. A different sort of dystopia than Washington, D.C. or Boston, but a dystopia nonetheless. Stop being a melodramatic, spoiled American. Current-day California is nothing like: * Present-day Russia * Present-day China * Present-day Mexico * Pinochet's Chile * Nazi Germany * Soviet Russia * Anywhere else in the Eastern Bloc * present-day ISIS territory Besides which, plenty of people hated Reagan.
- dang 11y ago
  > Stop being a melodramatic, spoiled American As I think you know, this isn't allowed on HN, regardless of how wrong someone is. Please don't do it here.
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    Calling people out for dramatizing their First World Problems into the collapse of society isn't allowed?
- panzagl 11y ago
  Dystopia has a specific meaning- failed states and dictatorships are not necessarily dystopias.
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    Yes, and by no means is present-day California (or even Reagan-day California, which I'd probably hate more myself) a state carefully optimized to inflict maximal misery on its inhabitants. It doesn't help that I live in Boston, which is also not a regime carefully working-out how to maximize the misery of the inhabitants.
    - Camillo 11y ago
      That is not even the definition of dystopia.
      - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
        From wikipedia: >A dystopia (from the Greek δυσ- and τόπος, alternatively, cacotopia,[1] kakotopia, or simply anti-utopia) is a community or society that is undesirable or frightening. >Dystopias are often characterized by dehumanization,[2] totalitarian governments, environmental disaster,[3] or other characteristics associated with a cataclysmic decline in society. I'm really wondering what definition you're working from.
        Camillo 11y ago
        Why do you do this? The key part of your previous comment, the one you yourself put in italics, was "carefully optimized to inflict maximal misery". The definition that you are quoting now says absolutely nothing about that. It is clear to everyone that your second post does not support your first in any way. There is absolutely no requirement that the negative aspects of a dystopia be "carefully optimized" for misery, or even that they be deliberate at all. They can just as easily arise from misguided goals, or even from completely undirected phenomena (the tragedy of the commons, for instance).
enraged_camel 11y ago
>>The thing is, California died a long time ago. The state which elected Ronald Reagan as governor is long, long gone. Reagan is single-handedly responsible for the decline of California. Prop 13 ensured that the state would always have too little revenue to support its growing population, resulting in cuts to the state's school system, infrastructure projects, social services, and more. Edit: I suppose the downvotes are normal considering HN's above-average libertarian slant...
- refurb 11y ago
  California's per person tax revenues are some of the highest in the entire country. So what you're saying is if the gov't could only have a bit more money everything would be great?
  - enraged_camel 11y ago
    The reason California's per person tax revenues are some of the highest in the entire country IS because California needs to offset the greatly reduced tax revenue from properties. The problem is that this status quo benefits the wealthy (who tend to own many properties) at the expense of middle and working classes.
    - refurb 11y ago
      When I said "tax revenues" I was including all taxes: income, property, sales, etc. It would appear California has more than made up for their low property taxes with other taxes. Yet, they still need more money?
      - enraged_camel 11y ago
        Yes, California has made up for the low property taxes with other taxes. Like I said though, what matters is where those other taxes come from and how they affect the taxpayer. For example, sales tax is regressive: it hurts the poor more than it hurts the rich. Same thing with income tax: the rich tend to have their income from various investments, which are taxed at a lower rate than payroll.

by wtbob 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

saryant 11y ago

I grew up in California (north, south and central). I highly doubt I will ever move back. California, in my experience, was filled with hatred and intolerance. Not on the surface, but dig a little deeper, disagree with the hivemind just a little bit and you'll find its friendly veneer quickly fades away to a grim reality. Beyond its never-ending bureaucracy is a politics of the personal that becomes inescapable. All that was left was to leave.

eli_gottlieb 11y ago

>As far as I can tell, from my visits, California is dystopia. A different sort of dystopia than Washington, D.C. or Boston, but a dystopia nonetheless. Stop being a melodramatic, spoiled American. Current-day California is nothing like: * Present-day Russia * Present-day China * Present-day Mexico * Pinochet's Chile * Nazi Germany * Soviet Russia * Anywhere else in the Eastern Bloc * present-day ISIS territory Besides which, plenty of people hated Reagan.

dang 11y ago
> Stop being a melodramatic, spoiled American As I think you know, this isn't allowed on HN, regardless of how wrong someone is. Please don't do it here.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  Calling people out for dramatizing their First World Problems into the collapse of society isn't allowed?
panzagl 11y ago
Dystopia has a specific meaning- failed states and dictatorships are not necessarily dystopias.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  Yes, and by no means is present-day California (or even Reagan-day California, which I'd probably hate more myself) a state carefully optimized to inflict maximal misery on its inhabitants. It doesn't help that I live in Boston, which is also not a regime carefully working-out how to maximize the misery of the inhabitants.
  - Camillo 11y ago
    That is not even the definition of dystopia.
    - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
      From wikipedia: >A dystopia (from the Greek δυσ- and τόπος, alternatively, cacotopia,[1] kakotopia, or simply anti-utopia) is a community or society that is undesirable or frightening. >Dystopias are often characterized by dehumanization,[2] totalitarian governments, environmental disaster,[3] or other characteristics associated with a cataclysmic decline in society. I'm really wondering what definition you're working from.
      - Camillo 11y ago
        Why do you do this? The key part of your previous comment, the one you yourself put in italics, was "carefully optimized to inflict maximal misery". The definition that you are quoting now says absolutely nothing about that. It is clear to everyone that your second post does not support your first in any way. There is absolutely no requirement that the negative aspects of a dystopia be "carefully optimized" for misery, or even that they be deliberate at all. They can just as easily arise from misguided goals, or even from completely undirected phenomena (the tragedy of the commons, for instance).

enraged_camel 11y ago

>>The thing is, California died a long time ago. The state which elected Ronald Reagan as governor is long, long gone. Reagan is single-handedly responsible for the decline of California. Prop 13 ensured that the state would always have too little revenue to support its growing population, resulting in cuts to the state's school system, infrastructure projects, social services, and more. Edit: I suppose the downvotes are normal considering HN's above-average libertarian slant...

refurb 11y ago
California's per person tax revenues are some of the highest in the entire country. So what you're saying is if the gov't could only have a bit more money everything would be great?
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  The reason California's per person tax revenues are some of the highest in the entire country IS because California needs to offset the greatly reduced tax revenue from properties. The problem is that this status quo benefits the wealthy (who tend to own many properties) at the expense of middle and working classes.
  - refurb 11y ago
    When I said "tax revenues" I was including all taxes: income, property, sales, etc. It would appear California has more than made up for their low property taxes with other taxes. Yet, they still need more money?
    - enraged_camel 11y ago
      Yes, California has made up for the low property taxes with other taxes. Like I said though, what matters is where those other taxes come from and how they affect the taxpayer. For example, sales tax is regressive: it hurts the poor more than it hurts the rich. Same thing with income tax: the rich tend to have their income from various investments, which are taxed at a lower rate than payroll.