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A few things about this: 1) This is why it's important to try to make your fortune early. Most won't, but try anyway. 2) Never stop learning. Everyone has to

A few things about this: 1) This is why it's important to try to make your fortune early. Most won't, but try anyway. 2) Never stop learning. Everyone has to become lifelong learners in this new hyper-competitive economy. Even moreso for those with traditional "disadvantages" like being considered too old. Keep up with trends, keep reading those whitepapers, go back and review the basics every so often (this is a good idea anyway, IMO), learn at least the basics of the new whiz-bang thing that comes out (even if it's just the "hello world" equivalent), and generally keep yourself "interview ready." 3) Physical appearance matters. They may not be able to ask your age, but they can look at you, and they'll form an opinion whether it's conscious or subconscious. Though many find it distasteful, it is the reality. That means consider carefully whether smoking/alcohol/other intoxicants that affect your physical appearance are worth it. It also behooves you to keep a regular exercise schedule. Cosmetic surgery is also an option; there are many tells for age you can fix: eyelid and eyebrow droop, under-eye and various other facial lines, hanging chin. Hair dye and grafts are also worth considering, as a receded hairline and whites/grays are obvious tells. 4) It probably goes without saying to keep up your professional network. 5) Another distasteful one, but perhaps worth thinking about: if you're someone who is in the age bracket that is often considered "very likely to have a family", but you don't (especially if you don't ever plan to), state it. Signaling that you don't have large, difficult-to-discharge obligations could give you the edge you need. You may get mentally re-bracketed. I haven't tried this one, since I'm not yet in the bracket nor do I appear to be, but I would probably do so if I was. 6) Companies that are truly hard up for good people (and not just the "we can't hire (at the wage we wish to pay)" companies) will just have to be more flexible. Maybe they already are.

notacoward 11y ago
Overall, your message seems to be that we shouldn't try to do anything about ageism. Try to be immune to it (1), or try to fake being young/childless (3 and 5), or get what you can despite it (6). Just as a thought experiment, consider how that would sound if we were talking about race, gender, or sexual orientation. Then (3) is like saying that people who aren't straight and white and male should try to minimize their differences from that "ideal", and (6) sounds like only companies that can't hire enough SWMs need to consider anyone else. Would you also promote skin-lightening or breast-reduction surgery to because they eliminate "obvious tells"? Age should not be the one bias that's still acceptable, and that we can't talk about fixing. Advice about how to live in an ageist world might be pragmatic, but telling people to accommodate it at all costs is practically the same as condoning it.
- Futurebot 11y ago
  I don't think a list of practical tips for dealing with the reality is condoning anything, anymore than telling people to wear a bulletproof vest is condoning getting shot. I've posted stories about ageism previously. I don't think you'll find me 'condoning' it anytime soon. Example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/your-money/unemployed-and-older-and-facing-a-jobless-future.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/your-money/unemployed-and-... I am realistic about it, though. I think it's something that we're going to have a very, very hard time dealing with. More obvious ones - like the ones you've listed - have been hard enough so far, and the struggles around them continue daily. Age? Yeah, that's going to be seriously challenging to combat. I'm all for trying to fight it, I just don't see the likelihood of good results anytime soon.
  - notacoward 11y ago
    When you propose drastic measures like surgery, I think it crosses that line. If you don't believe me, why don't you either answer my question or explain why the analogy to sex/race/gender discrimination doesn't apply? Why would you not propose cosmetic surgery to cope with the "manifest reality" of being black or female? (Besides fear of the repercussions if you did, that is.) Why is one "realistic" when the other is clearly out of bounds? Any complete list of suggestions would include at least a few items aimed at challenging the bias. It doesn't have to be "systemic change"; it could just be calling out the behavior in a specific environment or context. Maybe that would work and maybe it wouldn't, but the same could be said of your "just fit in" suggestions. When the list is so one-sided, it implies that acceptance is the only logical course. That's wrong. It's not enough to admit that ageism exists (and then only when challenged). If you don't acknowledge the need for change then you're part of the problem. P.S. Since you keep re-editing what I'm responding to instead of adding new responses, putting it off isn't so great either. Yeah, sure, we'll start thinking about justice some day. We have more important things to worry about this week, right?
    - Futurebot 11y ago
      Unlike those other areas, which I think can be combatted through cultural change and pressure, ageism is one that I think will remain a great deal more stubborn and resistant to change, and I don't feel that I have anything really useful to suggest other than "be aware of it and try not to be ageist." I could certainly be wrong, and I hope am. I just don't feel particularly hopeful about it. There's a comparable bias I don't think societies will have much luck with, either: "ugliness bias": http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203687504576655331418204842 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240529702036875045766553... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8765360/Does-being-ugly-make-you-poor.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8765360/Does-be... I just don't see good ways of fixing that. (There's also "height bias", but I actually think that one might be fixable culturally.) Edit: I know it seems defeatist, and maybe it is, but it's an area I just don't feel hopeful about.

notacoward 11y ago

Overall, your message seems to be that we shouldn't try to do anything about ageism. Try to be immune to it (1), or try to fake being young/childless (3 and 5), or get what you can despite it (6). Just as a thought experiment, consider how that would sound if we were talking about race, gender, or sexual orientation. Then (3) is like saying that people who aren't straight and white and male should try to minimize their differences from that "ideal", and (6) sounds like only companies that can't hire enough SWMs need to consider anyone else. Would you also promote skin-lightening or breast-reduction surgery to because they eliminate "obvious tells"? Age should not be the one bias that's still acceptable, and that we can't talk about fixing. Advice about how to live in an ageist world might be pragmatic, but telling people to accommodate it at all costs is practically the same as condoning it.

Futurebot 11y ago
I don't think a list of practical tips for dealing with the reality is condoning anything, anymore than telling people to wear a bulletproof vest is condoning getting shot. I've posted stories about ageism previously. I don't think you'll find me 'condoning' it anytime soon. Example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/your-money/unemployed-and-older-and-facing-a-jobless-future.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/your-money/unemployed-and-... I am realistic about it, though. I think it's something that we're going to have a very, very hard time dealing with. More obvious ones - like the ones you've listed - have been hard enough so far, and the struggles around them continue daily. Age? Yeah, that's going to be seriously challenging to combat. I'm all for trying to fight it, I just don't see the likelihood of good results anytime soon.
- notacoward 11y ago
  When you propose drastic measures like surgery, I think it crosses that line. If you don't believe me, why don't you either answer my question or explain why the analogy to sex/race/gender discrimination doesn't apply? Why would you not propose cosmetic surgery to cope with the "manifest reality" of being black or female? (Besides fear of the repercussions if you did, that is.) Why is one "realistic" when the other is clearly out of bounds? Any complete list of suggestions would include at least a few items aimed at challenging the bias. It doesn't have to be "systemic change"; it could just be calling out the behavior in a specific environment or context. Maybe that would work and maybe it wouldn't, but the same could be said of your "just fit in" suggestions. When the list is so one-sided, it implies that acceptance is the only logical course. That's wrong. It's not enough to admit that ageism exists (and then only when challenged). If you don't acknowledge the need for change then you're part of the problem. P.S. Since you keep re-editing what I'm responding to instead of adding new responses, putting it off isn't so great either. Yeah, sure, we'll start thinking about justice some day. We have more important things to worry about this week, right?
  - Futurebot 11y ago
    Unlike those other areas, which I think can be combatted through cultural change and pressure, ageism is one that I think will remain a great deal more stubborn and resistant to change, and I don't feel that I have anything really useful to suggest other than "be aware of it and try not to be ageist." I could certainly be wrong, and I hope am. I just don't feel particularly hopeful about it. There's a comparable bias I don't think societies will have much luck with, either: "ugliness bias": http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203687504576655331418204842 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240529702036875045766553... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8765360/Does-being-ugly-make-you-poor.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8765360/Does-be... I just don't see good ways of fixing that. (There's also "height bias", but I actually think that one might be fixable culturally.) Edit: I know it seems defeatist, and maybe it is, but it's an area I just don't feel hopeful about.