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One sentiment people in Berkeley would seem to share, however, is that they'd rather be naive about helping people than naive about being critical.

by tmsh 17y ago

dschobel 17y ago
The argument is that the mismanaged spending and high taxation rate are actually pernicious to the community's welfare, this isn't just a matter of cynical reflex saying "look at those do-gooders thinking they're making a difference".
- tmsh 17y ago
  But the argument hints that they are missing the big picture by, as you claim, 'mismanaged spending and [a] high taxation rate'. My point is that it's better to miss the big picture while helping people, than to miss the big picture while criticizing people. Greenspun visits Berkeley for maybe 3 or 4 days and he's now quite sure that people there have it wrong? He mentions Prop 13 in passing, as something that everyone in the East Bay keeps on talking about. Some might argue it's a much bigger issue than he realizes. Far from over-taxation being a problem, it would be that California has not taxed based on real property values for decades. I.e., Greenspun has side-stepped a large problem in the bigger picture by being hyper-critical. Perhaps I'm overreacting, but I was just getting a little tired of Greenspun's hints that there is a problem with being naive about 'doing good' -- as you mention (quite well said, that is sort of how I read Greenspun's attitude). My point was to hint that there is also a problem in taking one's 'cynical reflex' too seriously. After all, these actions, at a certain level, are really kind of similar movements. Hyper-taxation and hyper-criticism both attempt to optimize at the wrong time, too impatiently. However, in the former case, at least someone gets helped (though arguably by being critical Greenspun is helping eventually). At any rate, I don't think what he says is completely incorrect. There's just a flip side to it. E.g., in any sufficiently large Lisp program, a lot of time is spent in FFI.
jacoblyles 17y ago
There's an old saying about what they pave the road to hell with.

One sentiment people in Berkeley would seem to share, however, is that they'd rather be naive about helping people than naive about being critical.

by tmsh 17y ago

One sentiment people in Berkeley would seem to share, however, is that they'd rather be naive about helping people than naive about being critical.

dschobel 17y ago

The argument is that the mismanaged spending and high taxation rate are actually pernicious to the community's welfare, this isn't just a matter of cynical reflex saying "look at those do-gooders thinking they're making a difference".

tmsh 17y ago
But the argument hints that they are missing the big picture by, as you claim, 'mismanaged spending and [a] high taxation rate'. My point is that it's better to miss the big picture while helping people, than to miss the big picture while criticizing people. Greenspun visits Berkeley for maybe 3 or 4 days and he's now quite sure that people there have it wrong? He mentions Prop 13 in passing, as something that everyone in the East Bay keeps on talking about. Some might argue it's a much bigger issue than he realizes. Far from over-taxation being a problem, it would be that California has not taxed based on real property values for decades. I.e., Greenspun has side-stepped a large problem in the bigger picture by being hyper-critical. Perhaps I'm overreacting, but I was just getting a little tired of Greenspun's hints that there is a problem with being naive about 'doing good' -- as you mention (quite well said, that is sort of how I read Greenspun's attitude). My point was to hint that there is also a problem in taking one's 'cynical reflex' too seriously. After all, these actions, at a certain level, are really kind of similar movements. Hyper-taxation and hyper-criticism both attempt to optimize at the wrong time, too impatiently. However, in the former case, at least someone gets helped (though arguably by being critical Greenspun is helping eventually). At any rate, I don't think what he says is completely incorrect. There's just a flip side to it. E.g., in any sufficiently large Lisp program, a lot of time is spent in FFI.

jacoblyles 17y ago

There's an old saying about what they pave the road to hell with.