3 ms·

What happens when someone gets injured or killed because he or she was improperly using a tool from the tool lending library? What if the low-hours guys you me

What happens when someone gets injured or killed because he or she was improperly using a tool from the tool lending library? What if the low-hours guys you mentioned were cutting corners on the tools' upkeep? Or is this really an issue? I don't think that Philip is opposed to the idea of a tool lending library, he is merely questioning why the City of Berkeley needs to be running it. Why can't a group of citizens form a cooperative to do this, instead of involving the city government?

ojbyrne 17y ago
Except that he never mentioned anything about the budget of the City of Berkeley, he just lumped them in with "big government."
count 17y ago
The city government IS a cooperative formed by the citizens of the City of Berkeley.
- frognibble 17y ago
  A cooperative is a group of people united voluntarily. A city is not voluntary (yeah, you can move. but it's not always possible or convenient until we have seasteading).
  - joubert 17y ago
    City residence IS voluntary. Very much unlike country citizenship, which, for practical purposes is involuntary for the vast majority of (non-European) people.
    - tome 17y ago
      What do you mean? Country citizenship is not voluntary for EU citizens either. Did you mean country residence?
      - joubert 17y ago
        In practical terms, citizenship does not restrict residency in Europe for Europeans.
  - bokonist 17y ago
    Almost every legal adult who lives in a city chose to live there. Yeah, choices have practical constraints, and yeah, it can be difficult to change once you've committed. But that's true of almost any complex product available on the free market (CRM systems, a university education, database software, operating system software, etc.).
- rglovejoy 17y ago
  There is a huge difference. If I decide to withhold my dues to a coop I belong to, the worst that they can do is not renew my membership. If I own a house in Cooperative of Berkeley, as you put it, and I decide that I no longer want to pay my dues (property taxes), they'll take away my house and might even have me prosecuted for tax evasion.
dasht 17y ago
rglovejoy asks: "What happens when someone gets injured or killed because he or she was improperly using a tool from the tool lending library? What if the low-hours guys you mentioned were cutting corners on the tools' upkeep? Or is this really an issue?" It's not really an issue because the guys that work there are highly competent. Informally, you can ask them for advice about hard projects. Maintaining the tools, they do a fine job. Liability to the city, I don't recall whether I had to sign a disclaimer or not when I first went there. I don't think so but I could be mis-remembering. At any rate, they are quite conservative and careful in their tool management. Also, regarding: "Why can't a group of citizens form a cooperative to do this, instead of involving the city government?" Well, we certainly could. Actually, we do! You should see our neighborhood-based disaster-prep system. It has miles to go before I feel like I can laugh at the next big earthquake but it is quite impressive. We've sheds and caches all over the place. And in many neighborhoods, there are less formal tool sharing arrangements. The Tool Lending Library fills a nice niche within that arrangement and is, as another commenter pointed out, a "citizen coop" in the sense of being "voter approved". Honestly, there is plenty to kvetch about about Berkeley and East Bay politics but the tool lending library is just not on that list.

ojbyrne 17y ago

Except that he never mentioned anything about the budget of the City of Berkeley, he just lumped them in with "big government."

count 17y ago

The city government IS a cooperative formed by the citizens of the City of Berkeley.

frognibble 17y ago
A cooperative is a group of people united voluntarily. A city is not voluntary (yeah, you can move. but it's not always possible or convenient until we have seasteading).
- joubert 17y ago
  City residence IS voluntary. Very much unlike country citizenship, which, for practical purposes is involuntary for the vast majority of (non-European) people.
  - tome 17y ago
    What do you mean? Country citizenship is not voluntary for EU citizens either. Did you mean country residence?
    - joubert 17y ago
      In practical terms, citizenship does not restrict residency in Europe for Europeans.
- bokonist 17y ago
  Almost every legal adult who lives in a city chose to live there. Yeah, choices have practical constraints, and yeah, it can be difficult to change once you've committed. But that's true of almost any complex product available on the free market (CRM systems, a university education, database software, operating system software, etc.).
rglovejoy 17y ago
There is a huge difference. If I decide to withhold my dues to a coop I belong to, the worst that they can do is not renew my membership. If I own a house in Cooperative of Berkeley, as you put it, and I decide that I no longer want to pay my dues (property taxes), they'll take away my house and might even have me prosecuted for tax evasion.

dasht 17y ago

rglovejoy asks: "What happens when someone gets injured or killed because he or she was improperly using a tool from the tool lending library? What if the low-hours guys you mentioned were cutting corners on the tools' upkeep? Or is this really an issue?" It's not really an issue because the guys that work there are highly competent. Informally, you can ask them for advice about hard projects. Maintaining the tools, they do a fine job. Liability to the city, I don't recall whether I had to sign a disclaimer or not when I first went there. I don't think so but I could be mis-remembering. At any rate, they are quite conservative and careful in their tool management. Also, regarding: "Why can't a group of citizens form a cooperative to do this, instead of involving the city government?" Well, we certainly could. Actually, we do! You should see our neighborhood-based disaster-prep system. It has miles to go before I feel like I can laugh at the next big earthquake but it is quite impressive. We've sheds and caches all over the place. And in many neighborhoods, there are less formal tool sharing arrangements. The Tool Lending Library fills a nice niche within that arrangement and is, as another commenter pointed out, a "citizen coop" in the sense of being "voter approved". Honestly, there is plenty to kvetch about about Berkeley and East Bay politics but the tool lending library is just not on that list.