5 ms·

As one small point, Greenspun waxes eloquent about the "big government" stupidity of the Berkeley Tool Lending Library. Well, what is the Berkeley Tool Lending

by dasht 17y ago

As one small point, Greenspun waxes eloquent about the "big government" stupidity of the Berkeley Tool Lending Library. Well, what is the Berkeley Tool Lending Library? It's a couple of sheds and some low-hours guys there taking care of the equipment. We got wheelbarrows, we got various small power tools, we got rotor tillers, we got tree pruning equipment, some ladders, etc. Lots of people benefit but, by eye, I'd say the main beneficiaries are homeowners who otherwise would have to buy under-used equipment from Home Depot or hire a contractor. The budget is freaking small. The social benefits (including bottom-line contribution to the local economy) is freaking huge. He's talking through his hat on that point, at the very least.

rglovejoy 17y ago
What happens when someone gets injured or killed because he or she was improperly using a tool from the tool lending library? What if the low-hours guys you mentioned were cutting corners on the tools' upkeep? Or is this really an issue? I don't think that Philip is opposed to the idea of a tool lending library, he is merely questioning why the City of Berkeley needs to be running it. Why can't a group of citizens form a cooperative to do this, instead of involving the city government?
- ojbyrne 17y ago
  Except that he never mentioned anything about the budget of the City of Berkeley, he just lumped them in with "big government."
- count 17y ago
  The city government IS a cooperative formed by the citizens of the City of Berkeley.
  - frognibble 17y ago
    A cooperative is a group of people united voluntarily. A city is not voluntary (yeah, you can move. but it's not always possible or convenient until we have seasteading).
    - joubert 17y ago
      City residence IS voluntary. Very much unlike country citizenship, which, for practical purposes is involuntary for the vast majority of (non-European) people.
      - tome 17y ago
        What do you mean? Country citizenship is not voluntary for EU citizens either. Did you mean country residence?
        joubert 17y ago
        In practical terms, citizenship does not restrict residency in Europe for Europeans.
    - bokonist 17y ago
      Almost every legal adult who lives in a city chose to live there. Yeah, choices have practical constraints, and yeah, it can be difficult to change once you've committed. But that's true of almost any complex product available on the free market (CRM systems, a university education, database software, operating system software, etc.).
  - rglovejoy 17y ago
    There is a huge difference. If I decide to withhold my dues to a coop I belong to, the worst that they can do is not renew my membership. If I own a house in Cooperative of Berkeley, as you put it, and I decide that I no longer want to pay my dues (property taxes), they'll take away my house and might even have me prosecuted for tax evasion.
- dasht 17y ago
  rglovejoy asks: "What happens when someone gets injured or killed because he or she was improperly using a tool from the tool lending library? What if the low-hours guys you mentioned were cutting corners on the tools' upkeep? Or is this really an issue?" It's not really an issue because the guys that work there are highly competent. Informally, you can ask them for advice about hard projects. Maintaining the tools, they do a fine job. Liability to the city, I don't recall whether I had to sign a disclaimer or not when I first went there. I don't think so but I could be mis-remembering. At any rate, they are quite conservative and careful in their tool management. Also, regarding: "Why can't a group of citizens form a cooperative to do this, instead of involving the city government?" Well, we certainly could. Actually, we do! You should see our neighborhood-based disaster-prep system. It has miles to go before I feel like I can laugh at the next big earthquake but it is quite impressive. We've sheds and caches all over the place. And in many neighborhoods, there are less formal tool sharing arrangements. The Tool Lending Library fills a nice niche within that arrangement and is, as another commenter pointed out, a "citizen coop" in the sense of being "voter approved". Honestly, there is plenty to kvetch about about Berkeley and East Bay politics but the tool lending library is just not on that list.
mnemonicsloth 17y ago
The social benefits (including bottom-line contribution to the local economy) is freaking huge. Most American municipalities get by without such services. Perhaps the way to persuade them is by providing hard data to support your cliam about social benefits.
- ojbyrne 17y ago
  Municipalities are probably the best form of government. They're small and in touch with their constituents. And they generally have to support themselves. Why should they have to provide hard data to people who don't actually live within their boundaries (presumably you don't)? Especially when the primary usage of that data is going to be to support some ideology that none of their residents would agree with.
  - daeken 17y ago
    You don't have to provide it, but if there are benefits, you may be able to support this in some way. If you can support it, then you may be able to persuade others into following course. Your response seems overly defensive, considering what the GP was actually asking.
  - mnemonicsloth 17y ago
    Berkeley doesn't owe Cleveland hard data. dasht owes us hard data if he wants to be taken seriously. Saying "The social benefit of X is freaking huge," with no support, is just a way of making "I really like X" sound more important.
  - giardini 17y ago
    "Municipalities are probably the best form of government". Unfortunately municipalities are arguably the most corrupt form of government, the major sins being nepotism and crony favoritism. If all that TSA social network analysis software used (largely unsuccessfully) to locate criminals and terrorists was instead applied to _any_ large US city's municipal employee and political system a major scandal would result and heads would roll.
mhb 17y ago
homeowners who otherwise would have to buy under-used equipment from Home Depot I'm always impressed at the variety of tools Home Depot rents.
patio11 17y ago
some low-hours guys there taking care of the equipment Come on, this is Berkeley we're talking about. These are municipal employees who, in return for their clockpunching, are likely going to have gold-plated pensions in 30 years, paid for by citizens of Berkeley and California who never needed a rotor tiller in their entire life. I might sound like a crazy Republican for saying that. OK, let's go to the City of Berkeley website and pick a low-status occupation. Hmm, I like Parking Meter Maintenance Worker, that sounds roughly comparable. http://agency.governmentjobs.com/berkeley/default.cfm?action=viewclassspec&classSpecID=106037&agency=1568&viewOnly=yes http://agency.governmentjobs.com/berkeley/default.cfm?action... Salary: $49,464.00 - $52,464.00 Annually (Patrick notes: where did I go wrong!) Pension: "City employees are included in the California Public Employees Retirement System (CalPERS). Retirement formula is 2.7% at age 55. The City pays both the employer and employee’s share (8%) of the retirement contribution." Now, you use that retirement formula to look up their salary at retirement based on years of service. Here's the chart: http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/member/retirement/service-retire/benefit-charts/pub-8-2.7percent-55.pdf http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/member/retirement/service... If after thirty years of doing the important work of keeping parking meters operating you desire to rest your laurels and retire from civic service, you can then draw 81% of your salary in your last year (including any overtime pay worked) FOR LIFE. [Edited to add: DOH! I erred in my supposition that Tool Lending Specialists make about as much as Parking Meter Maintenance Workers! My apologies, Tool Lending Specialists! I should have noted that your salary goes up to SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR. http://agency.governmentjobs.com/berkeley/default.cfm?action=viewclassspec&classSpecID=106021&agency=1568&viewOnly=yes http://agency.governmentjobs.com/berkeley/default.cfm?action... ]
- omouse 17y ago
  You're trying to say that your fellow citizens who have a job should get less than a living wage? What would would you do with the extra few bucks that comes back if their salaries fall? Buy another chocolate bar or something? Fuck me. You're arguing against helping another human being out by giving them a good salary. You want to give them a shitty salary and them have them "leech" off of you through welfare or other shit?
  - 17y ago
gojomo 17y ago
A tool library is an intriguing, possibly beneficial idea. But whether it's actually worth what's spent depends on facts not in evidence: how many people use it, how efficiently is it run, what's the cost of the next-best-alternative, do wealthy homeowners need the subsidy? Anything well-intentioned looks good in a vacuum; it's the tradeoffs that matter. Given the way municipally-originated projects are run, I doubt a rigorous cost-benefit analysis has been applied. If it were a privately-run tool rental facility, and it survived its startup period, I'd have more confidence that it was earning its keep: willing customers would be paying its costs plus enough profit to keep the owners interested. Municipal projects can survive for years based on little more than "sounds nice", "employs some people/friends", or even ego-stroking "how Berkeley can we be?"
- dasht 17y ago
  Re "A tool library is an intriguing, possibly beneficial idea. But whether it's actually worth what's spent depends on facts not in evidence: how many people use it, how efficiently is it run, what's the cost of the next-best-alternative, do wealthy homeowners need the subsidy? Anything well-intentioned looks good in a vacuum; it's the tradeoffs that matter." It's quite often busy. I don't think I've been there once without having to stand in line. I see their (inventory tagged) tools quite often. By eye, it's run damn efficiently. Really, it's sheds. There are some sharpening stones on motors so when you check in a tool that needs sharpening, they wipe it down (if you didn't) and give it quick once over (if needed). It's in the back yard of a branch library that would otherwise be given over to maybe 3-5 parking spaces. It appears to have damn little administrative or operational overhead. Honestly, it looks like a gem. "Given the way municipally-originated projects are run, I doubt a rigorous cost-benefit analysis has been applied. " In this case, the benefits are very widely appreciated and the costs are so low that a "rigorous" cost-benefit analysis could easily double or triple the budget. Their big "wastage"? Their big "perk"? Their biggest aggregious waste of taxpayer money? That would appear to be the candy bowl they sometimes have out so that patrons can grab a cheap mint or cherry sucker during their visit. Or, for all I know, maybe the people who work their fund that out of pocket. "I'd have more confidence that it was earning its keep: willing customers would be paying its costs plus enough profit to keep the owners interested."* I loan my personal tools to neighbors when the need arises. I'm very pleased when they come back on-time, cleaned, and not damaged. I don't expect to make a profit on a bike stand or a shovel or the exotic wrench - I'm quite happy to see those things get use rather than sitting on a shelf. Similarly, the tool-lending library sure looks to run on the (damn) cheap. It's one of those things that "just plain works" around Berkeley. (Another that "just plain works" is our one funky playground where, yes, parents have to sign some paper before their kids are admitted but once admitted, kids as young as you can imagine are allowed to use tools, including power tools, and get to constantly rebuild the playground. Here: http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/29/adventure-playground-facing-budget-constraints/ http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/29/adventure-playground-... ) "Municipal projects can survive for years based on little more than "sounds nice", "employs some people/friends", or even ego-stroking "how Berkeley can we be?" Yes, they can, but if I could take you on a walking tour of the place, you'd believe that the Tool Lending Library is just obviously sane. Best I can do on this here interweb thingie is: http://www.yelp.com/biz/berkeley-public-library-tool-lending-library-berkeley http://www.yelp.com/biz/berkeley-public-library-tool-lending...

by dasht 17y ago

rglovejoy 17y ago

What happens when someone gets injured or killed because he or she was improperly using a tool from the tool lending library? What if the low-hours guys you mentioned were cutting corners on the tools' upkeep? Or is this really an issue? I don't think that Philip is opposed to the idea of a tool lending library, he is merely questioning why the City of Berkeley needs to be running it. Why can't a group of citizens form a cooperative to do this, instead of involving the city government?

ojbyrne 17y ago
Except that he never mentioned anything about the budget of the City of Berkeley, he just lumped them in with "big government."
count 17y ago
The city government IS a cooperative formed by the citizens of the City of Berkeley.
- frognibble 17y ago
  A cooperative is a group of people united voluntarily. A city is not voluntary (yeah, you can move. but it's not always possible or convenient until we have seasteading).
  - joubert 17y ago
    City residence IS voluntary. Very much unlike country citizenship, which, for practical purposes is involuntary for the vast majority of (non-European) people.
    - tome 17y ago
      What do you mean? Country citizenship is not voluntary for EU citizens either. Did you mean country residence?
      - joubert 17y ago
        In practical terms, citizenship does not restrict residency in Europe for Europeans.
  - bokonist 17y ago
    Almost every legal adult who lives in a city chose to live there. Yeah, choices have practical constraints, and yeah, it can be difficult to change once you've committed. But that's true of almost any complex product available on the free market (CRM systems, a university education, database software, operating system software, etc.).
- rglovejoy 17y ago
  There is a huge difference. If I decide to withhold my dues to a coop I belong to, the worst that they can do is not renew my membership. If I own a house in Cooperative of Berkeley, as you put it, and I decide that I no longer want to pay my dues (property taxes), they'll take away my house and might even have me prosecuted for tax evasion.
dasht 17y ago
rglovejoy asks: "What happens when someone gets injured or killed because he or she was improperly using a tool from the tool lending library? What if the low-hours guys you mentioned were cutting corners on the tools' upkeep? Or is this really an issue?" It's not really an issue because the guys that work there are highly competent. Informally, you can ask them for advice about hard projects. Maintaining the tools, they do a fine job. Liability to the city, I don't recall whether I had to sign a disclaimer or not when I first went there. I don't think so but I could be mis-remembering. At any rate, they are quite conservative and careful in their tool management. Also, regarding: "Why can't a group of citizens form a cooperative to do this, instead of involving the city government?" Well, we certainly could. Actually, we do! You should see our neighborhood-based disaster-prep system. It has miles to go before I feel like I can laugh at the next big earthquake but it is quite impressive. We've sheds and caches all over the place. And in many neighborhoods, there are less formal tool sharing arrangements. The Tool Lending Library fills a nice niche within that arrangement and is, as another commenter pointed out, a "citizen coop" in the sense of being "voter approved". Honestly, there is plenty to kvetch about about Berkeley and East Bay politics but the tool lending library is just not on that list.

mnemonicsloth 17y ago

The social benefits (including bottom-line contribution to the local economy) is freaking huge. Most American municipalities get by without such services. Perhaps the way to persuade them is by providing hard data to support your cliam about social benefits.

ojbyrne 17y ago
Municipalities are probably the best form of government. They're small and in touch with their constituents. And they generally have to support themselves. Why should they have to provide hard data to people who don't actually live within their boundaries (presumably you don't)? Especially when the primary usage of that data is going to be to support some ideology that none of their residents would agree with.
- daeken 17y ago
  You don't have to provide it, but if there are benefits, you may be able to support this in some way. If you can support it, then you may be able to persuade others into following course. Your response seems overly defensive, considering what the GP was actually asking.
- mnemonicsloth 17y ago
  Berkeley doesn't owe Cleveland hard data. dasht owes us hard data if he wants to be taken seriously. Saying "The social benefit of X is freaking huge," with no support, is just a way of making "I really like X" sound more important.
- giardini 17y ago
  "Municipalities are probably the best form of government". Unfortunately municipalities are arguably the most corrupt form of government, the major sins being nepotism and crony favoritism. If all that TSA social network analysis software used (largely unsuccessfully) to locate criminals and terrorists was instead applied to _any_ large US city's municipal employee and political system a major scandal would result and heads would roll.

mhb 17y ago

homeowners who otherwise would have to buy under-used equipment from Home Depot I'm always impressed at the variety of tools Home Depot rents.

patio11 17y ago

some low-hours guys there taking care of the equipment Come on, this is Berkeley we're talking about. These are municipal employees who, in return for their clockpunching, are likely going to have gold-plated pensions in 30 years, paid for by citizens of Berkeley and California who never needed a rotor tiller in their entire life. I might sound like a crazy Republican for saying that. OK, let's go to the City of Berkeley website and pick a low-status occupation. Hmm, I like Parking Meter Maintenance Worker, that sounds roughly comparable. http://agency.governmentjobs.com/berkeley/default.cfm?action=viewclassspec&classSpecID=106037&agency=1568&viewOnly=yes http://agency.governmentjobs.com/berkeley/default.cfm?action... Salary: $49,464.00 - $52,464.00 Annually (Patrick notes: where did I go wrong!) Pension: "City employees are included in the California Public Employees Retirement System (CalPERS). Retirement formula is 2.7% at age 55. The City pays both the employer and employee’s share (8%) of the retirement contribution." Now, you use that retirement formula to look up their salary at retirement based on years of service. Here's the chart: http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/member/retirement/service-retire/benefit-charts/pub-8-2.7percent-55.pdf http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/member/retirement/service... If after thirty years of doing the important work of keeping parking meters operating you desire to rest your laurels and retire from civic service, you can then draw 81% of your salary in your last year (including any overtime pay worked) FOR LIFE. [Edited to add: DOH! I erred in my supposition that Tool Lending Specialists make about as much as Parking Meter Maintenance Workers! My apologies, Tool Lending Specialists! I should have noted that your salary goes up to SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR. http://agency.governmentjobs.com/berkeley/default.cfm?action=viewclassspec&classSpecID=106021&agency=1568&viewOnly=yes http://agency.governmentjobs.com/berkeley/default.cfm?action... ]

omouse 17y ago
You're trying to say that your fellow citizens who have a job should get less than a living wage? What would would you do with the extra few bucks that comes back if their salaries fall? Buy another chocolate bar or something? Fuck me. You're arguing against helping another human being out by giving them a good salary. You want to give them a shitty salary and them have them "leech" off of you through welfare or other shit?
- 17y ago

gojomo 17y ago

A tool library is an intriguing, possibly beneficial idea. But whether it's actually worth what's spent depends on facts not in evidence: how many people use it, how efficiently is it run, what's the cost of the next-best-alternative, do wealthy homeowners need the subsidy? Anything well-intentioned looks good in a vacuum; it's the tradeoffs that matter. Given the way municipally-originated projects are run, I doubt a rigorous cost-benefit analysis has been applied. If it were a privately-run tool rental facility, and it survived its startup period, I'd have more confidence that it was earning its keep: willing customers would be paying its costs plus enough profit to keep the owners interested. Municipal projects can survive for years based on little more than "sounds nice", "employs some people/friends", or even ego-stroking "how Berkeley can we be?"

dasht 17y ago
Re "A tool library is an intriguing, possibly beneficial idea. But whether it's actually worth what's spent depends on facts not in evidence: how many people use it, how efficiently is it run, what's the cost of the next-best-alternative, do wealthy homeowners need the subsidy? Anything well-intentioned looks good in a vacuum; it's the tradeoffs that matter." It's quite often busy. I don't think I've been there once without having to stand in line. I see their (inventory tagged) tools quite often. By eye, it's run damn efficiently. Really, it's sheds. There are some sharpening stones on motors so when you check in a tool that needs sharpening, they wipe it down (if you didn't) and give it quick once over (if needed). It's in the back yard of a branch library that would otherwise be given over to maybe 3-5 parking spaces. It appears to have damn little administrative or operational overhead. Honestly, it looks like a gem. "Given the way municipally-originated projects are run, I doubt a rigorous cost-benefit analysis has been applied. " In this case, the benefits are very widely appreciated and the costs are so low that a "rigorous" cost-benefit analysis could easily double or triple the budget. Their big "wastage"? Their big "perk"? Their biggest aggregious waste of taxpayer money? That would appear to be the candy bowl they sometimes have out so that patrons can grab a cheap mint or cherry sucker during their visit. Or, for all I know, maybe the people who work their fund that out of pocket. "I'd have more confidence that it was earning its keep: willing customers would be paying its costs plus enough profit to keep the owners interested."* I loan my personal tools to neighbors when the need arises. I'm very pleased when they come back on-time, cleaned, and not damaged. I don't expect to make a profit on a bike stand or a shovel or the exotic wrench - I'm quite happy to see those things get use rather than sitting on a shelf. Similarly, the tool-lending library sure looks to run on the (damn) cheap. It's one of those things that "just plain works" around Berkeley. (Another that "just plain works" is our one funky playground where, yes, parents have to sign some paper before their kids are admitted but once admitted, kids as young as you can imagine are allowed to use tools, including power tools, and get to constantly rebuild the playground. Here: http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/29/adventure-playground-facing-budget-constraints/ http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/29/adventure-playground-... ) "Municipal projects can survive for years based on little more than "sounds nice", "employs some people/friends", or even ego-stroking "how Berkeley can we be?" Yes, they can, but if I could take you on a walking tour of the place, you'd believe that the Tool Lending Library is just obviously sane. Best I can do on this here interweb thingie is: http://www.yelp.com/biz/berkeley-public-library-tool-lending-library-berkeley http://www.yelp.com/biz/berkeley-public-library-tool-lending...