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>the riots Be careful as you judge the quality of the issues based upon what the news and local police call "riots" and "rioters". The media hasn't always been

>the riots Be careful as you judge the quality of the issues based upon what the news and local police call "riots" and "rioters". The media hasn't always been reliable or objective in applying those labels, and law enforcement officials have also been unable to resist editorializing or even telling outright lies. Police as well have been caught instigating disturbances and antagonizing protesters. >Anything those people want and advocate now makes me think "Fuck you, more $$$ for da popo". There are many more people who are opposed to injustice, and who deserve fair treatment than the group of opportunistic assholes who take advantage of these situations for criminal ends.

Kalium 11y ago
The riots I am thinking of happened precisely when a peaceful demonstration got away from its police escort. To repeat, it was peaceful so long as the police were present. Can't blame the police for this one. And I'm talking about things that happened two blocks from my apartment here. I saw the wreckage. It was several months before all the damage was repaired. > There are many more people who are opposed to injustice, and who deserve fair treatment than the group of opportunistic assholes who take advantage of these situations for criminal ends. Yes. There are. I feel empathy for them, because my desire to not give rioters propaganda fodder comes at their expense. Come up with a way for me to support fighting injustice that cannot and will not be turned around to argue that riots fix injustice, and I'll be there with bells on. Otherwise, I'm put in the position of being asked to encourage riots and measurably sacrifice my personal safety and well-being. And that's... a difficult pitch.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  >Come up with a way for me to support fighting injustice that cannot and will not be turned around to argue that riots fix injustice, One way to fix that is fair governance, or you know, work to stop injustice before anyone riots. One thing that's pretty clear now is that the government can treat groups of people pretty badly and for a long while before anyone will lift a finger. >I'll be there with bells on. No, sadly it was predictable that people would not tolerate endless systemic corruption and injustice, yet very few people were working to change it, or in most cases even aware of it before the "riots". It sounds almost like you want obvious injustice to be allowed to continue just to spite the relatively small number of violent protesters; lest people might be encouraged to use violence to gain attention for their political ends. The answer to injustice is when it becomes apparent to end it, full stop. It doesn't require you to endorse rioting, either.
  - Kalium 11y ago
    You're asking me to take actions that can be reasonably portrayed as riots garnering political support. It's abundantly clear that riots are commonly portrayed as yielding this positive effect. You can see it right here in this discussion. Why would I want to encourage this by taking actions entirely consistent with it? You aren't asking me to endorse rioting. You are asking me to act in a way externally indistinguishable from rewarding rioting. That, I've found, is a thing easily rationalized from a distance.
    - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
      No, you're made aware of injustice, you take action to stop injustice. It's as simple as that. Assuming for a moment that protesters == rioters I hope you don't think that people who are desperate enough to riot for social justice would riot less if they didn't get it.
      - Kalium 11y ago
        I think there's a meme that riots yield political concessions. I also think that acting in a way that suggests this meme is true is unlikely to have the effect of discouraging riots as a means of gaining political concessions. I think that in an environment where peaceful protest is perceived as without value and riots are perceived as efficacious, people will tend to make the rational choice. Is that a sufficiently clear statement of my position? Perhaps I should say that I view riots as a form of injustice unto themselves. I am attempting to take action to stop injustice by demonstrating the scope and negative impact of injustice.
        fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
        >I think there's a meme that riots yield political concessions. I think that unfortunately it may be correct. >I think that in an environment where peaceful protest is perceived as without value and riots are perceived as efficacious, people will tend to make the rational choice. I think that's a pretty obvious and logical path of escalation, but I still do not believe that most people would begin a protest with the intent that it become violent, nor that most people would rationalize the use of violence in that manner. If they are so rational, they surely would not choose the police or potentially the nat'l guard as opponents in a brawl. >Perhaps I should say that I view riots as a form of injustice unto themselves. Agreed. >I am attempting to take action to stop injustice by demonstrating the scope and negative impact of injustice. And demonstrating a marked lack of sympathy for others in doing so. You are not particularly concerned with injustice or violence as long as you remain personally unaffected.
- analog31 11y ago
  Come up with a way for me to support fighting injustice that cannot and will not be turned around to argue that riots fix injustice, and I'll be there with bells on. Otherwise, I'm put in the position of being asked to encourage riots and measurably sacrifice my personal safety and well-being. In my view, your demand is unreasonable and un-achievable, on the face of it. Nobody can control what rhetoric or narrative emerges from events. Protest is a necessary ingredient of society. There is always the risk that protest will turn violent, just as there is always the risk that a plane will crash. This is even if nobody condones violence or plane crashes, and we all extend our sympathy to the innocent victims.
  - Kalium 11y ago
    In a society where people glorify plane crashes, not all innocent victims receive sympathy. Instead, we tell them that they don't deserve it because there are larger issues at hand. Sounds pretty screwed up, doesn't it?
rayiner 11y ago
Media lies and police misdirection didn't vandalize my neighborhood in Baltimore.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  Police actions may have directly caused the first riot. I'm talking about the decision to discontinue bus service, shut down the Metro station and detain teenagers in the streets while police faced off with them in riot gear. It's not clear that police had any plan other than "respond to the riot", as if it was an inevitable event even before the riot existed (even though threats of a "purge" existed). How did they expect the kids to get home from school after police denied them access to every available form of transportation? It appears that police actually compounded their problem by confining all of the students into a large crowd, (and we know a few things about how crowds/herds behave). According to the Wiki it apparently took a half-hour before someone threw a brick at police, who shortly began throwing bricks themselves. Also, as far as I can tell, most of the vandalism in Baltimore was initially directed at the government (not that it's an excuse). It got out of hand and unfortunately once the real jerks got involved turned into a spate of blacks vs everyone else racism/vandalism/violence/etc, but again it was a tiny fraction of the people involved in protesting. It's not even clear that the ones primarily responsible for the vandalism/violence were even involved in the protesting. What is clear though is that many of the protesters were among those harmed in the violence, and were also in the much larger groups of people who helped clean up the mess.

Kalium 11y ago

The riots I am thinking of happened precisely when a peaceful demonstration got away from its police escort. To repeat, it was peaceful so long as the police were present. Can't blame the police for this one. And I'm talking about things that happened two blocks from my apartment here. I saw the wreckage. It was several months before all the damage was repaired. > There are many more people who are opposed to injustice, and who deserve fair treatment than the group of opportunistic assholes who take advantage of these situations for criminal ends. Yes. There are. I feel empathy for them, because my desire to not give rioters propaganda fodder comes at their expense. Come up with a way for me to support fighting injustice that cannot and will not be turned around to argue that riots fix injustice, and I'll be there with bells on. Otherwise, I'm put in the position of being asked to encourage riots and measurably sacrifice my personal safety and well-being. And that's... a difficult pitch.

fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
>Come up with a way for me to support fighting injustice that cannot and will not be turned around to argue that riots fix injustice, One way to fix that is fair governance, or you know, work to stop injustice before anyone riots. One thing that's pretty clear now is that the government can treat groups of people pretty badly and for a long while before anyone will lift a finger. >I'll be there with bells on. No, sadly it was predictable that people would not tolerate endless systemic corruption and injustice, yet very few people were working to change it, or in most cases even aware of it before the "riots". It sounds almost like you want obvious injustice to be allowed to continue just to spite the relatively small number of violent protesters; lest people might be encouraged to use violence to gain attention for their political ends. The answer to injustice is when it becomes apparent to end it, full stop. It doesn't require you to endorse rioting, either.
- Kalium 11y ago
  You're asking me to take actions that can be reasonably portrayed as riots garnering political support. It's abundantly clear that riots are commonly portrayed as yielding this positive effect. You can see it right here in this discussion. Why would I want to encourage this by taking actions entirely consistent with it? You aren't asking me to endorse rioting. You are asking me to act in a way externally indistinguishable from rewarding rioting. That, I've found, is a thing easily rationalized from a distance.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    No, you're made aware of injustice, you take action to stop injustice. It's as simple as that. Assuming for a moment that protesters == rioters I hope you don't think that people who are desperate enough to riot for social justice would riot less if they didn't get it.
    - Kalium 11y ago
      I think there's a meme that riots yield political concessions. I also think that acting in a way that suggests this meme is true is unlikely to have the effect of discouraging riots as a means of gaining political concessions. I think that in an environment where peaceful protest is perceived as without value and riots are perceived as efficacious, people will tend to make the rational choice. Is that a sufficiently clear statement of my position? Perhaps I should say that I view riots as a form of injustice unto themselves. I am attempting to take action to stop injustice by demonstrating the scope and negative impact of injustice.
      - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
        >I think there's a meme that riots yield political concessions. I think that unfortunately it may be correct. >I think that in an environment where peaceful protest is perceived as without value and riots are perceived as efficacious, people will tend to make the rational choice. I think that's a pretty obvious and logical path of escalation, but I still do not believe that most people would begin a protest with the intent that it become violent, nor that most people would rationalize the use of violence in that manner. If they are so rational, they surely would not choose the police or potentially the nat'l guard as opponents in a brawl. >Perhaps I should say that I view riots as a form of injustice unto themselves. Agreed. >I am attempting to take action to stop injustice by demonstrating the scope and negative impact of injustice. And demonstrating a marked lack of sympathy for others in doing so. You are not particularly concerned with injustice or violence as long as you remain personally unaffected.
analog31 11y ago
Come up with a way for me to support fighting injustice that cannot and will not be turned around to argue that riots fix injustice, and I'll be there with bells on. Otherwise, I'm put in the position of being asked to encourage riots and measurably sacrifice my personal safety and well-being. In my view, your demand is unreasonable and un-achievable, on the face of it. Nobody can control what rhetoric or narrative emerges from events. Protest is a necessary ingredient of society. There is always the risk that protest will turn violent, just as there is always the risk that a plane will crash. This is even if nobody condones violence or plane crashes, and we all extend our sympathy to the innocent victims.
- Kalium 11y ago
  In a society where people glorify plane crashes, not all innocent victims receive sympathy. Instead, we tell them that they don't deserve it because there are larger issues at hand. Sounds pretty screwed up, doesn't it?

rayiner 11y ago

Media lies and police misdirection didn't vandalize my neighborhood in Baltimore.

fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
Police actions may have directly caused the first riot. I'm talking about the decision to discontinue bus service, shut down the Metro station and detain teenagers in the streets while police faced off with them in riot gear. It's not clear that police had any plan other than "respond to the riot", as if it was an inevitable event even before the riot existed (even though threats of a "purge" existed). How did they expect the kids to get home from school after police denied them access to every available form of transportation? It appears that police actually compounded their problem by confining all of the students into a large crowd, (and we know a few things about how crowds/herds behave). According to the Wiki it apparently took a half-hour before someone threw a brick at police, who shortly began throwing bricks themselves. Also, as far as I can tell, most of the vandalism in Baltimore was initially directed at the government (not that it's an excuse). It got out of hand and unfortunately once the real jerks got involved turned into a spate of blacks vs everyone else racism/vandalism/violence/etc, but again it was a tiny fraction of the people involved in protesting. It's not even clear that the ones primarily responsible for the vandalism/violence were even involved in the protesting. What is clear though is that many of the protesters were among those harmed in the violence, and were also in the much larger groups of people who helped clean up the mess.