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It's funny how many growth hacks finally boil down to "Collect 500 emails and then email them about your startup". Is it okay to find users from Craigslist to

It's funny how many growth hacks finally boil down to "Collect 500 emails and then email them about your startup". Is it okay to find users from Craigslist to tell them about your startup too? Another thing that I never understand is If I draft the email personally by hand then it is okay but if I use a template to mass fill the emails with [first name] then it is spamming? How does one decide the ethical side of such growth hacks?

DanBC 11y ago
Stop saying "spam" (which means different things to different people) and start saying UBE - unsolicited, bulk, email. If it's unsolicited, but not bulk, it's okay. If it's solicited (where solicited means "opt in, with a confirmation of that opt in") it's okay. As soon as it's bulk and unsolicited it's spam. And that doesn't change if you hand craft the emails or use a template.
- BinaryIdiot 11y ago
  > Stop saying "spam" and start saying UBE - unsolicited, bulk, email. > As soon as it's bulk and unsolicited it's spam Did you mean to write this? You essentially said to stop saying "spam" and that this is spam...
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Well, yes, I see that's confusing. "As soon as it's bulk and unsolicited it meets the minimum definition for what most people would call spam", perhaps, or "as soon as it's bulk and unsolicited your hosting provider is going to think it's spam".
- teacup50 11y ago
  Marketers, "growth hackers", and senators don't get to define spam. Users -- especially those hitting the "spam" button -- define spam. Whether or not something is considered spam depends largely on whose interest you're serving by sending it: the sender's, or the receipient's.
austenallred 11y ago
This is specifically a way to email writers of (tech) blogs, craft a pitch for them, then email them in a personalized way at scale. I'd argue that the people we're pitching want to be pitched - it's actually a part of their job. We're just doing it at scale as a way to save a lot of time. > Is it okay to find users from Craigslist to tell them about your startup too? I know you're joking about this, but I'm pretty sure Airbnb would have failed without doing exactly that. At the end of the day the ethical line is one you need to draw yourself. But IMO if the people you're emailing expect to and are OK with receiving email pitches from you you're well on the "ethical" side of the scenario. Ask (almost) any reporter: They want to be pitched.
- supersan 11y ago
  > I'd argue they want to be pitched, and doing it at scale is just a way to save you a lot of time. There are sites like www.helpareporter.com which do the exact same thing but the difference here is that the reporters opt-in to get the emails. I think that is a more ethical way of doing it. >I know you're joking about this, but I'm pretty sure Airbnb would have failed without doing exactly that. Wow, though as per AirBnB it was a rogue marketing agency which did it without telling them. Link for the lazy (first article on Google): [1] http://www.tnooz.com/article/airbnb-admits-rogue-sales-team-used-craigslist-for-stealthy-property-drive/ http://www.tnooz.com/article/airbnb-admits-rogue-sales-team-...
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - austenallred 11y ago
    > There are sites like www.helpareporter.com which do the exact same thing but the difference here is that the reporters opt-in to get the emails. I think that is a more ethical way of doing it. HARO has like 5 requests/day, and it's for very niche topics. If you're writing for TechCrunch you expect to be pitched. That's just the way it works. > as per AirBnB it was a rogue marketing agency which did it without telling them. I call bullshit on that. They funded the company selling cereal for $50/box on Craigslist. They knew how to play the Craigslist game. Craigslist is incredibly difficult to mass post on, you don't do that by accident. I don't blame them from shying away from it when they were big enough for people to care, but I bet you if you had them in private they'd admit to it.
falicon 11y ago
"Collect 500 emails and then email them about your startup"...that's specifically why I ended up building https://conversationlist.com https://conversationlist.com (it helps you skip the step of collect 500 emails and just jump right to the email everyone you have a pre-existing relationship with step). Amazing how well that old-school growth hack still works...
minimaxir 11y ago
I was once asked by someone if my Facebook Page scraper tool could be used for scraping personally-identifiable data, because "we are doing a growth hacking experiment whereby we want to reach out to a number of FB pages in a systematic way." Facebook prevents scraping user data via the API for exactly this reason.
- austenallred 11y ago
  Yeah, spamming people who join Facebook groups is pretty low (unless through FB ads). I still think emailing reporters through their publicly provided email addresses is different.
  - Spivak 11y ago
    Why make an exception for ads? Sending millions of emails to people who did not solicit them is unethical and spam, but using an ad network to accomplish the same thing is okay?
    - austenallred 11y ago
      Because that's how the platform works, and you agree to that when you use the platform. If you want to debate whether ads in general are ethical, I'm really not about to have that discussion yet again; I'll let someone else take it and we can all argue the same points we always do for the millionth time.
      - zo1 11y ago
        You could argue the same of the email "platform", by virtue of individuals being "emailable" from anyone.

DanBC 11y ago

Stop saying "spam" (which means different things to different people) and start saying UBE - unsolicited, bulk, email. If it's unsolicited, but not bulk, it's okay. If it's solicited (where solicited means "opt in, with a confirmation of that opt in") it's okay. As soon as it's bulk and unsolicited it's spam. And that doesn't change if you hand craft the emails or use a template.

BinaryIdiot 11y ago
> Stop saying "spam" and start saying UBE - unsolicited, bulk, email. > As soon as it's bulk and unsolicited it's spam Did you mean to write this? You essentially said to stop saying "spam" and that this is spam...
- DanBC 11y ago
  Well, yes, I see that's confusing. "As soon as it's bulk and unsolicited it meets the minimum definition for what most people would call spam", perhaps, or "as soon as it's bulk and unsolicited your hosting provider is going to think it's spam".
teacup50 11y ago
Marketers, "growth hackers", and senators don't get to define spam. Users -- especially those hitting the "spam" button -- define spam. Whether or not something is considered spam depends largely on whose interest you're serving by sending it: the sender's, or the receipient's.

austenallred 11y ago

This is specifically a way to email writers of (tech) blogs, craft a pitch for them, then email them in a personalized way at scale. I'd argue that the people we're pitching want to be pitched - it's actually a part of their job. We're just doing it at scale as a way to save a lot of time. > Is it okay to find users from Craigslist to tell them about your startup too? I know you're joking about this, but I'm pretty sure Airbnb would have failed without doing exactly that. At the end of the day the ethical line is one you need to draw yourself. But IMO if the people you're emailing expect to and are OK with receiving email pitches from you you're well on the "ethical" side of the scenario. Ask (almost) any reporter: They want to be pitched.

supersan 11y ago
> I'd argue they want to be pitched, and doing it at scale is just a way to save you a lot of time. There are sites like www.helpareporter.com which do the exact same thing but the difference here is that the reporters opt-in to get the emails. I think that is a more ethical way of doing it. >I know you're joking about this, but I'm pretty sure Airbnb would have failed without doing exactly that. Wow, though as per AirBnB it was a rogue marketing agency which did it without telling them. Link for the lazy (first article on Google): [1] http://www.tnooz.com/article/airbnb-admits-rogue-sales-team-used-craigslist-for-stealthy-property-drive/ http://www.tnooz.com/article/airbnb-admits-rogue-sales-team-...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- austenallred 11y ago
  > There are sites like www.helpareporter.com which do the exact same thing but the difference here is that the reporters opt-in to get the emails. I think that is a more ethical way of doing it. HARO has like 5 requests/day, and it's for very niche topics. If you're writing for TechCrunch you expect to be pitched. That's just the way it works. > as per AirBnB it was a rogue marketing agency which did it without telling them. I call bullshit on that. They funded the company selling cereal for $50/box on Craigslist. They knew how to play the Craigslist game. Craigslist is incredibly difficult to mass post on, you don't do that by accident. I don't blame them from shying away from it when they were big enough for people to care, but I bet you if you had them in private they'd admit to it.

falicon 11y ago

"Collect 500 emails and then email them about your startup"...that's specifically why I ended up building https://conversationlist.com https://conversationlist.com (it helps you skip the step of collect 500 emails and just jump right to the email everyone you have a pre-existing relationship with step). Amazing how well that old-school growth hack still works...

minimaxir 11y ago

I was once asked by someone if my Facebook Page scraper tool could be used for scraping personally-identifiable data, because "we are doing a growth hacking experiment whereby we want to reach out to a number of FB pages in a systematic way." Facebook prevents scraping user data via the API for exactly this reason.

austenallred 11y ago
Yeah, spamming people who join Facebook groups is pretty low (unless through FB ads). I still think emailing reporters through their publicly provided email addresses is different.
- Spivak 11y ago
  Why make an exception for ads? Sending millions of emails to people who did not solicit them is unethical and spam, but using an ad network to accomplish the same thing is okay?
  - austenallred 11y ago
    Because that's how the platform works, and you agree to that when you use the platform. If you want to debate whether ads in general are ethical, I'm really not about to have that discussion yet again; I'll let someone else take it and we can all argue the same points we always do for the millionth time.
    - zo1 11y ago
      You could argue the same of the email "platform", by virtue of individuals being "emailable" from anyone.