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I feel like you're ignoring a whole host of variables with a reductionist statement like "they commit more crimes proportionally". First of all, how do you comp

I feel like you're ignoring a whole host of variables with a reductionist statement like "they commit more crimes proportionally". First of all, how do you compare what "more crimes" is proportionally? Different countries have vastly different definitions of what constitutes a crime, and further, different penalties for those crimes. Even if you did isolate those factors, it's still not really an answer to "why does this happen more here than there?" You're answer is, essentially, "because it happens more often there." Edit: After rereading the second paragraph I realize that you do seem to be pointing towards solutions to the root cause of crime rates, but I find the first statement confusing in light of that.

dmm 11y ago
I don't understand how no one talks about the systemic, generational poverty that a large proportion of the US black population lives in. It's just incomprehensible to me how people can't see how this leads to crime. A kid actually said this, "Writing is important so that when I grow up and I'm in jail I can write my kids like my dad writes me." because every man in his life is a gang member who sells drugs or is in jail. What the hell do you think he's going to grow up to be? It sure seems like he knows. I'm certain that racist policing is a problem but it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the problems we have. If it's just the police why don't you(not specifically you) go raise your family in North St Louis. You can kiss them goodnight to the sound of gunshots. And it seems like everyone just ignores it. I don't really have a point. I'm just confused and frustrated. I don't understand why the US has a seemingly permanent underclass that gets completely ignored.
- darkroasted 11y ago
  I don't understand how no one talks about the systemic, generational poverty that a large proportion of the US black population lives in. It's just incomprehensible to me how people can't see how this leads to crime. Because there are lots of instances of people living in deep poverty without killing each other at ridiculously high rates. Most people in China or India are more materially deprived than those living in the American inner-city, yet the neighborhoods there are much, much safer. Philadelphia in 1890 was much poorer, and much more unequal, yet the homicide rates were 10X lower. Also Edwardian England is a compelling counter-example. Read "The Classic Slum" by Robert Roberts. British society around 1900 was massively unequal and lots of people were desperately poor. But their homicide rates were 100X lower than the rates seen in the contemporary ghetto. The poor working class areas of England during that period had intact families, schools that provided discipline, strict policing, and strong institutions. We are a savage species and crime is the default. What prevents crime is civilization. What you see in the black inner-cities is an utter void of civilization.
  - rmxt 11y ago
    How do you conclude that it's "black inner-cities" and not just "inner-cities" that are this so-called "void of civilization"?
    - darkroasted 11y ago
      Um, from taking walks a few blocks from my apartment and doing volunteering in such communities. Also just reading the local news. Also reading lots of ethnographies. Go read American Millstone (http://www.amazon.com/American-Millstone-Examination-Permanent-Underclass/dp/0809249316/ http://www.amazon.com/American-Millstone-Examination-Permane...) or Ghettoside and maybe you will rethink those scare quotes. I'm not sure how "void of civilization" is an unfair label for what is described in those books. There were white (mostly Irish) inner city areas with a complete void of civilization, such as old southie, but those areas are less prevalent these days. That said there is lots of degeneracy among the white population in some areas too. I'd call those areas more of a partial void of civilization rather than an utter void of civilization.
      - rmxt 11y ago
        They aren't scare quotes, they are merely direct quotation marks. "Black inner-cities" is fine as an observation. But, it's hard for me to read your post above and not come away thinking that your implication is 'being black makes one more prone to crime and uncivilized behavior.' Could you clarify to what extent you think race (as opposed to poverty from birth) contributes to one's predilection for "civilized" behavior?
        darkroasted 11y ago
        There is a saying that every generation is invaded by a horde of savages -- they're called children. Humans are savage by default, civilization is not natural. It took generations to build the institutions, the social mores, the web of reinforcing family and peer influences, the culture, the churches/schools, etc, that make civilization possible. The existence of these elements vary by people, vary by ethnicity (ethnicity being a combination of tribe and culture and institutions). If you look at the worst inner-city, ethnically African-American neighborhoods, those elements are all missing. Kids are raised from the cradle to the jail-cell without civilizing influences of parental discipline, good peer influences, and peer role models. Again, read American Millstone, or The Corner or Ghettoside. That is what I mean by a void of civilization.
darkroasted 11y ago
I feel like you're ignoring a whole host of variables with a reductionist statement like "they commit more crimes proportionally". First of all, how do you compare what "more crimes" is proportionally? Different countries have vastly different definitions of what constitutes a crime, and further, different penalties for those crimes. Robbery and homicide are the two most clearly defined and well reported crimes. Robbery because the victim can see the offender, and has an incentive to report it to get the goods back. Homicide because it is very hard for the police to ignore a body. * According to surveys of robbery victims, the offending rate of blacks is 6 times higher than that of whites. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf * According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, homicide offending rates for blacks are 8 times higher than for whites. The proportion of blacks in prison is not at all out-of-line with the proportion of serious crime committed.

dmm 11y ago

I don't understand how no one talks about the systemic, generational poverty that a large proportion of the US black population lives in. It's just incomprehensible to me how people can't see how this leads to crime. A kid actually said this, "Writing is important so that when I grow up and I'm in jail I can write my kids like my dad writes me." because every man in his life is a gang member who sells drugs or is in jail. What the hell do you think he's going to grow up to be? It sure seems like he knows. I'm certain that racist policing is a problem but it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the problems we have. If it's just the police why don't you(not specifically you) go raise your family in North St Louis. You can kiss them goodnight to the sound of gunshots. And it seems like everyone just ignores it. I don't really have a point. I'm just confused and frustrated. I don't understand why the US has a seemingly permanent underclass that gets completely ignored.

darkroasted 11y ago
I don't understand how no one talks about the systemic, generational poverty that a large proportion of the US black population lives in. It's just incomprehensible to me how people can't see how this leads to crime. Because there are lots of instances of people living in deep poverty without killing each other at ridiculously high rates. Most people in China or India are more materially deprived than those living in the American inner-city, yet the neighborhoods there are much, much safer. Philadelphia in 1890 was much poorer, and much more unequal, yet the homicide rates were 10X lower. Also Edwardian England is a compelling counter-example. Read "The Classic Slum" by Robert Roberts. British society around 1900 was massively unequal and lots of people were desperately poor. But their homicide rates were 100X lower than the rates seen in the contemporary ghetto. The poor working class areas of England during that period had intact families, schools that provided discipline, strict policing, and strong institutions. We are a savage species and crime is the default. What prevents crime is civilization. What you see in the black inner-cities is an utter void of civilization.
- rmxt 11y ago
  How do you conclude that it's "black inner-cities" and not just "inner-cities" that are this so-called "void of civilization"?
  - darkroasted 11y ago
    Um, from taking walks a few blocks from my apartment and doing volunteering in such communities. Also just reading the local news. Also reading lots of ethnographies. Go read American Millstone (http://www.amazon.com/American-Millstone-Examination-Permanent-Underclass/dp/0809249316/ http://www.amazon.com/American-Millstone-Examination-Permane...) or Ghettoside and maybe you will rethink those scare quotes. I'm not sure how "void of civilization" is an unfair label for what is described in those books. There were white (mostly Irish) inner city areas with a complete void of civilization, such as old southie, but those areas are less prevalent these days. That said there is lots of degeneracy among the white population in some areas too. I'd call those areas more of a partial void of civilization rather than an utter void of civilization.
    - rmxt 11y ago
      They aren't scare quotes, they are merely direct quotation marks. "Black inner-cities" is fine as an observation. But, it's hard for me to read your post above and not come away thinking that your implication is 'being black makes one more prone to crime and uncivilized behavior.' Could you clarify to what extent you think race (as opposed to poverty from birth) contributes to one's predilection for "civilized" behavior?
      - darkroasted 11y ago
        There is a saying that every generation is invaded by a horde of savages -- they're called children. Humans are savage by default, civilization is not natural. It took generations to build the institutions, the social mores, the web of reinforcing family and peer influences, the culture, the churches/schools, etc, that make civilization possible. The existence of these elements vary by people, vary by ethnicity (ethnicity being a combination of tribe and culture and institutions). If you look at the worst inner-city, ethnically African-American neighborhoods, those elements are all missing. Kids are raised from the cradle to the jail-cell without civilizing influences of parental discipline, good peer influences, and peer role models. Again, read American Millstone, or The Corner or Ghettoside. That is what I mean by a void of civilization.

darkroasted 11y ago

I feel like you're ignoring a whole host of variables with a reductionist statement like "they commit more crimes proportionally". First of all, how do you compare what "more crimes" is proportionally? Different countries have vastly different definitions of what constitutes a crime, and further, different penalties for those crimes. Robbery and homicide are the two most clearly defined and well reported crimes. Robbery because the victim can see the offender, and has an incentive to report it to get the goods back. Homicide because it is very hard for the police to ignore a body. * According to surveys of robbery victims, the offending rate of blacks is 6 times higher than that of whites. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf * According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, homicide offending rates for blacks are 8 times higher than for whites. The proportion of blacks in prison is not at all out-of-line with the proportion of serious crime committed.