5 ms·

There is a reason for higher incarceration rates: they commit more crimes proportionally. It is easy to put the blame on "evil racist cops" and whatnot, it is

There is a reason for higher incarceration rates: they commit more crimes proportionally. It is easy to put the blame on "evil racist cops" and whatnot, it is much harder to stop ignoring the issue that a small part of the population represents a vast amount of the criminals and start thinking about real solutions. What are the causes of the violence? There is welfare to those who need it, there are opportunities for those who work for it. Is it an economical issue, a social/cultural one? Perhaps prison life is "comfortable" compared to working your ass off, perhaps education is lacking, perhaps a bit of everything, and so forth...

Roodgorf 11y ago
I feel like you're ignoring a whole host of variables with a reductionist statement like "they commit more crimes proportionally". First of all, how do you compare what "more crimes" is proportionally? Different countries have vastly different definitions of what constitutes a crime, and further, different penalties for those crimes. Even if you did isolate those factors, it's still not really an answer to "why does this happen more here than there?" You're answer is, essentially, "because it happens more often there." Edit: After rereading the second paragraph I realize that you do seem to be pointing towards solutions to the root cause of crime rates, but I find the first statement confusing in light of that.
- dmm 11y ago
  I don't understand how no one talks about the systemic, generational poverty that a large proportion of the US black population lives in. It's just incomprehensible to me how people can't see how this leads to crime. A kid actually said this, "Writing is important so that when I grow up and I'm in jail I can write my kids like my dad writes me." because every man in his life is a gang member who sells drugs or is in jail. What the hell do you think he's going to grow up to be? It sure seems like he knows. I'm certain that racist policing is a problem but it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the problems we have. If it's just the police why don't you(not specifically you) go raise your family in North St Louis. You can kiss them goodnight to the sound of gunshots. And it seems like everyone just ignores it. I don't really have a point. I'm just confused and frustrated. I don't understand why the US has a seemingly permanent underclass that gets completely ignored.
  - darkroasted 11y ago
    I don't understand how no one talks about the systemic, generational poverty that a large proportion of the US black population lives in. It's just incomprehensible to me how people can't see how this leads to crime. Because there are lots of instances of people living in deep poverty without killing each other at ridiculously high rates. Most people in China or India are more materially deprived than those living in the American inner-city, yet the neighborhoods there are much, much safer. Philadelphia in 1890 was much poorer, and much more unequal, yet the homicide rates were 10X lower. Also Edwardian England is a compelling counter-example. Read "The Classic Slum" by Robert Roberts. British society around 1900 was massively unequal and lots of people were desperately poor. But their homicide rates were 100X lower than the rates seen in the contemporary ghetto. The poor working class areas of England during that period had intact families, schools that provided discipline, strict policing, and strong institutions. We are a savage species and crime is the default. What prevents crime is civilization. What you see in the black inner-cities is an utter void of civilization.
    - rmxt 11y ago
      How do you conclude that it's "black inner-cities" and not just "inner-cities" that are this so-called "void of civilization"?
      - darkroasted 11y ago
        Um, from taking walks a few blocks from my apartment and doing volunteering in such communities. Also just reading the local news. Also reading lots of ethnographies. Go read American Millstone (http://www.amazon.com/American-Millstone-Examination-Permanent-Underclass/dp/0809249316/ http://www.amazon.com/American-Millstone-Examination-Permane...) or Ghettoside and maybe you will rethink those scare quotes. I'm not sure how "void of civilization" is an unfair label for what is described in those books. There were white (mostly Irish) inner city areas with a complete void of civilization, such as old southie, but those areas are less prevalent these days. That said there is lots of degeneracy among the white population in some areas too. I'd call those areas more of a partial void of civilization rather than an utter void of civilization.
- darkroasted 11y ago
  I feel like you're ignoring a whole host of variables with a reductionist statement like "they commit more crimes proportionally". First of all, how do you compare what "more crimes" is proportionally? Different countries have vastly different definitions of what constitutes a crime, and further, different penalties for those crimes. Robbery and homicide are the two most clearly defined and well reported crimes. Robbery because the victim can see the offender, and has an incentive to report it to get the goods back. Homicide because it is very hard for the police to ignore a body. * According to surveys of robbery victims, the offending rate of blacks is 6 times higher than that of whites. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf * According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, homicide offending rates for blacks are 8 times higher than for whites. The proportion of blacks in prison is not at all out-of-line with the proportion of serious crime committed.
calibraxis 11y ago
"blame on 'evil racist cops'"? They're employees. Doing what the bosses say; hired by the bosses. If they're racist, guess who selected for that trait. If any enemy country had these outcomes, we wouldn't talk about police psychology or the comforts of prison life. We'd talk about the nation's distribution of power (history of slavery and dominant "white" race, systematic inequality, etc) and figure it out with cold rationality.
- simonh 11y ago
  >If they're racist, guess who selected for that trait. So I suppose unionization in industry is caused by bosses selecting for socialist employees?
cottonseed 11y ago
> There is a reason for higher incarceration rates: they commit more crimes proportionally. That's not true. At least not when it comes to drug use, blacks and white use drugs at similar rates [0]. Asymmetric enforcement is another explanation. [0] http://c1.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/pic_corner_071014_samhsa.jpg http://c1.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/pic_corner_07101...
- cglee 11y ago
  This is such an important point that it really should be at the top. Just look at the punitive charges for crack vs cocaine: two very similar drugs, but consumed by different demographics. Legislators, DAs, judges and police adjust their behavior when sentences feel out of whack with the crime. Unfortunately, that empathy goes out the window when the people in charge are sentencing "other" people, who they don't empathize with. Poor, uneducated people live by one set of laws, and middle-upper class people live by another set of laws.
- CWuestefeld 11y ago
  I don't think drug usage is the right metric, though. I believe that the law enforcement strategy is a concentration on drug dealers; prosecution of users is pretty much incidental, used to enhance sentences for other crimes as much as anything else. If prosecution of dealers is the policy, then you'd need to show that blacks and whites sell drugs at similar rates. I have no idea whether or not that's true...
  - modoc 11y ago
    And the other thing is the related factors that make them more or less likely to be caught or noticed by the law. There's counter examples I'm sure, but dealers who service more upper crust types (who in the US are more likely to be white) are frankly less likely to show up on the radar and less likely to have a dime dropped on them by a client who's bag was a little light. It's like streetwalkers vs escorts listed on TER vs companions that you'd need a gold clad personal introduction to even know they exist. The higher up the ladder you go, the more discrete all parties tend to be.
  - 11y ago
eljimmy 11y ago
You also have to look at why people are being incarcerated. There are individuals doing life in prison for distribution of a plant. A plant that is native to this ecosystem. It's the most absurd thing I can think of when it comes to America's war on drugs.
mherkender 11y ago
It is easy to put the blame on "black culture" then to look at the very complex socioeconoic factors that lead things to where we are today. You're the one oversimplifying.

Roodgorf 11y ago

I feel like you're ignoring a whole host of variables with a reductionist statement like "they commit more crimes proportionally". First of all, how do you compare what "more crimes" is proportionally? Different countries have vastly different definitions of what constitutes a crime, and further, different penalties for those crimes. Even if you did isolate those factors, it's still not really an answer to "why does this happen more here than there?" You're answer is, essentially, "because it happens more often there." Edit: After rereading the second paragraph I realize that you do seem to be pointing towards solutions to the root cause of crime rates, but I find the first statement confusing in light of that.

dmm 11y ago
I don't understand how no one talks about the systemic, generational poverty that a large proportion of the US black population lives in. It's just incomprehensible to me how people can't see how this leads to crime. A kid actually said this, "Writing is important so that when I grow up and I'm in jail I can write my kids like my dad writes me." because every man in his life is a gang member who sells drugs or is in jail. What the hell do you think he's going to grow up to be? It sure seems like he knows. I'm certain that racist policing is a problem but it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the problems we have. If it's just the police why don't you(not specifically you) go raise your family in North St Louis. You can kiss them goodnight to the sound of gunshots. And it seems like everyone just ignores it. I don't really have a point. I'm just confused and frustrated. I don't understand why the US has a seemingly permanent underclass that gets completely ignored.
- darkroasted 11y ago
  I don't understand how no one talks about the systemic, generational poverty that a large proportion of the US black population lives in. It's just incomprehensible to me how people can't see how this leads to crime. Because there are lots of instances of people living in deep poverty without killing each other at ridiculously high rates. Most people in China or India are more materially deprived than those living in the American inner-city, yet the neighborhoods there are much, much safer. Philadelphia in 1890 was much poorer, and much more unequal, yet the homicide rates were 10X lower. Also Edwardian England is a compelling counter-example. Read "The Classic Slum" by Robert Roberts. British society around 1900 was massively unequal and lots of people were desperately poor. But their homicide rates were 100X lower than the rates seen in the contemporary ghetto. The poor working class areas of England during that period had intact families, schools that provided discipline, strict policing, and strong institutions. We are a savage species and crime is the default. What prevents crime is civilization. What you see in the black inner-cities is an utter void of civilization.
  - rmxt 11y ago
    How do you conclude that it's "black inner-cities" and not just "inner-cities" that are this so-called "void of civilization"?
    - darkroasted 11y ago
      Um, from taking walks a few blocks from my apartment and doing volunteering in such communities. Also just reading the local news. Also reading lots of ethnographies. Go read American Millstone (http://www.amazon.com/American-Millstone-Examination-Permanent-Underclass/dp/0809249316/ http://www.amazon.com/American-Millstone-Examination-Permane...) or Ghettoside and maybe you will rethink those scare quotes. I'm not sure how "void of civilization" is an unfair label for what is described in those books. There were white (mostly Irish) inner city areas with a complete void of civilization, such as old southie, but those areas are less prevalent these days. That said there is lots of degeneracy among the white population in some areas too. I'd call those areas more of a partial void of civilization rather than an utter void of civilization.
darkroasted 11y ago
I feel like you're ignoring a whole host of variables with a reductionist statement like "they commit more crimes proportionally". First of all, how do you compare what "more crimes" is proportionally? Different countries have vastly different definitions of what constitutes a crime, and further, different penalties for those crimes. Robbery and homicide are the two most clearly defined and well reported crimes. Robbery because the victim can see the offender, and has an incentive to report it to get the goods back. Homicide because it is very hard for the police to ignore a body. * According to surveys of robbery victims, the offending rate of blacks is 6 times higher than that of whites. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf * According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, homicide offending rates for blacks are 8 times higher than for whites. The proportion of blacks in prison is not at all out-of-line with the proportion of serious crime committed.

calibraxis 11y ago

"blame on 'evil racist cops'"? They're employees. Doing what the bosses say; hired by the bosses. If they're racist, guess who selected for that trait. If any enemy country had these outcomes, we wouldn't talk about police psychology or the comforts of prison life. We'd talk about the nation's distribution of power (history of slavery and dominant "white" race, systematic inequality, etc) and figure it out with cold rationality.

simonh 11y ago
>If they're racist, guess who selected for that trait. So I suppose unionization in industry is caused by bosses selecting for socialist employees?

cottonseed 11y ago

> There is a reason for higher incarceration rates: they commit more crimes proportionally. That's not true. At least not when it comes to drug use, blacks and white use drugs at similar rates [0]. Asymmetric enforcement is another explanation. [0] http://c1.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/pic_corner_071014_samhsa.jpg http://c1.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/pic_corner_07101...

cglee 11y ago
This is such an important point that it really should be at the top. Just look at the punitive charges for crack vs cocaine: two very similar drugs, but consumed by different demographics. Legislators, DAs, judges and police adjust their behavior when sentences feel out of whack with the crime. Unfortunately, that empathy goes out the window when the people in charge are sentencing "other" people, who they don't empathize with. Poor, uneducated people live by one set of laws, and middle-upper class people live by another set of laws.
CWuestefeld 11y ago
I don't think drug usage is the right metric, though. I believe that the law enforcement strategy is a concentration on drug dealers; prosecution of users is pretty much incidental, used to enhance sentences for other crimes as much as anything else. If prosecution of dealers is the policy, then you'd need to show that blacks and whites sell drugs at similar rates. I have no idea whether or not that's true...
- modoc 11y ago
  And the other thing is the related factors that make them more or less likely to be caught or noticed by the law. There's counter examples I'm sure, but dealers who service more upper crust types (who in the US are more likely to be white) are frankly less likely to show up on the radar and less likely to have a dime dropped on them by a client who's bag was a little light. It's like streetwalkers vs escorts listed on TER vs companions that you'd need a gold clad personal introduction to even know they exist. The higher up the ladder you go, the more discrete all parties tend to be.
- 11y ago

eljimmy 11y ago

You also have to look at why people are being incarcerated. There are individuals doing life in prison for distribution of a plant. A plant that is native to this ecosystem. It's the most absurd thing I can think of when it comes to America's war on drugs.

mherkender 11y ago

It is easy to put the blame on "black culture" then to look at the very complex socioeconoic factors that lead things to where we are today. You're the one oversimplifying.