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It probably would have been worth trying to ask a question: "I have interviews for two consulting projects at X hours and Y hours. Is it likely that I will be a

It probably would have been worth trying to ask a question: "I have interviews for two consulting projects at X hours and Y hours. Is it likely that I will be able to make them in time?" Possible benefits include: -- Getting a straight answer. -- Breaking the mental model whereby the police are dehumanizing you and/or lumping you into a certain profile. -- Getting a response so nasty it's easier to get them into trouble later on. :)

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
Asking a question could provoke them, though.
- hellbanner 11y ago
  The policeman is in your head, the terrorists have won.
  - tome 11y ago
    No, the terrorists win when they succeed in killing innocent civilians and bringing down the government they were targeting. Forcing us to go through very annoying security measures is a loss for us but does not count as a terrorist "win".
    - eggestad 11y ago
      No. All terrorism is about changing behavior. Terrorists want you to either start doing something or want you to stop doing something. Killing, maiming or treats of killing or maiming are means to that end.
      - w_t_payne 11y ago
        Most terrorism is about keeping the funds flowing for the guy sending the other guys off to blow themselves (and/or any bystanders who happen to be in the vicinity) to smithereens.
      - tome 11y ago
        The IRA wanted a united island of Ireland, for example. They didn't think they'd "won" because rubbish bins were removed from stations. Complaining that the terrorists are "winning" because the TSA makes us take off our shoes at airports or our civil liberties have eroded somewhat is to miss the point completely.
  - Gupie 11y ago
    "the man" has won
virtuabhi 11y ago
The most likely outcome: -- Getting a response so nasty it's easier to get "you" into trouble "now" I have tried this (I am from India). Any question to authority, whether police or TSA or Immigration officers will make sure that instead of ~30 mins, you will end up wasting 3-4 hours. Of course, results might be different if you belong to the same race as officer. But that was the point of the article.
- CurtMonash 11y ago
  Do you really mean "question", or do you mean "challenge"? If it's "challenge", I understand your point. If it's "question", then even though I'm a white male who's unlikely to be adversely profiled, I'm still tempted to wonder whether you're doing it wrong.
  - virtuabhi 11y ago
    I meant "question". I guess, it is difficult (not impossible) to empathize with what other people go through, when you are able to breeze through such interactions. Just to give an example, I (a male) can point out that women should present ideas in a better way when their ideas are trivially dismissed in meetings. But that would be brushing aside the sexism in workplace/society. Similarly, in this case we should look at the numbers, which overwhelmingly suggest that people of color (or a specific religion/region) are questioned much more frequently. I am sure that many of such people can speak with clarity and question with respect.
    - CurtMonash 11y ago
      But the police situation is fundamentally a lot simpler than the workplace one, because it is a single interaction. If you fear you are being lumped into a category by them that it is not good to belong to, you really have only two goals: 1. Avoid truly terrible outcomes (being shot, beaten, framed for a crime, etc.). 2. Get re-categorized. There are many stories in the news of people of color failing to achieve these goals, even when they are pleasant and polite. But there are few stories of pleasant, polite interaction making their situations WORSE ... except that if your politeness is ignored, it can be dangerous to repeat yourself, because that can indeed be construed as a challenge.
chojeen 11y ago
> Getting a response so nasty it's easier to get them into trouble later on. :) I know the comment was tongue-in-cheek, but it bears mentioning: when dealing with the police, your objective should be to escape the situation unscathed, not to provoke them. Remember that criminal charges, severe injury, or even death are possible consequences of any encounter with law enforcement.
- Nutomic 11y ago
  I guess it's different in the US, but I've never felt like I was in danger around European police.
hartator 11y ago
I am pretty sure they've asked hime where he is going.
- andrewaylett 11y ago
  The article says "The police hasn’t taken any real effort to engage in a dialog to discover my reasons for visiting Munich" so I'm not convinced you're correct.
pascalmemories 11y ago
It appears you've never had a real encounter with Police. I've actually worked with the Police. ALL training is about asserting power when dealing with suspects (a suspect is anyone you stop or talk to - no matter what the circumstances; think about how many people reporting a crime actually end up being arrested themselves due to something they say which incriminates them, even in something tangential and unrelated to what they are reporting). The moment someone tries to reassert control, training is to respond with additional aggressive responses to overwhelm resistance. Call in backup, draw a taser/gun/baton, physically take hold of the person etc. Try pulling things like talking about your consulting projects and asking for a guarantee about making a meeting and you'll be lucky not to be face down on the ground in under 5 seconds and spend the next 24 hours sitting in a cell. In all my years, I think I probably met less than 5 colleagues who could proportionately and reasonably interact with people, defuse tensions and remain in control (of both the situation and themselves). All the rest relied solely on the power assertion training and some couldn't even interact with other police officers without trying to assert power over each other. That always got nasty, especially when they did it to someone who, like them, didn't know how to back down or defuse a situation. Unless you have a crack team of lawyers monitoring your every move, your best approach is to be compliant and non-confrontation. Remember as much detail as you can (especially names/numbers) and make a formal complaint later on, via a lawyer if possible, once you're out of custody (and preferably out of easy reach - remember the police are 24x7, they can expend huge resources to hound you out of sheer vexatiousness. You have to sleep. They don't.).
- sschueller 11y ago
  Most european police forces train for de-escalation. Treating another person the way you want to be treated makes a huge difference.
- anei 11y ago
  What country was that?
  - pascalmemories 11y ago
    The UK. My role saw interaction across different jurisdictions and the UK seemed better than some (some of the US stuff was eye popping, even based on my experience). I'm sure there are places better than the UK but I can just base things on my experience. Others may be able to comment on the good based on their experience.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

Asking a question could provoke them, though.

hellbanner 11y ago
The policeman is in your head, the terrorists have won.
- tome 11y ago
  No, the terrorists win when they succeed in killing innocent civilians and bringing down the government they were targeting. Forcing us to go through very annoying security measures is a loss for us but does not count as a terrorist "win".
  - eggestad 11y ago
    No. All terrorism is about changing behavior. Terrorists want you to either start doing something or want you to stop doing something. Killing, maiming or treats of killing or maiming are means to that end.
    - w_t_payne 11y ago
      Most terrorism is about keeping the funds flowing for the guy sending the other guys off to blow themselves (and/or any bystanders who happen to be in the vicinity) to smithereens.
    - tome 11y ago
      The IRA wanted a united island of Ireland, for example. They didn't think they'd "won" because rubbish bins were removed from stations. Complaining that the terrorists are "winning" because the TSA makes us take off our shoes at airports or our civil liberties have eroded somewhat is to miss the point completely.
- Gupie 11y ago
  "the man" has won

virtuabhi 11y ago

The most likely outcome: -- Getting a response so nasty it's easier to get "you" into trouble "now" I have tried this (I am from India). Any question to authority, whether police or TSA or Immigration officers will make sure that instead of ~30 mins, you will end up wasting 3-4 hours. Of course, results might be different if you belong to the same race as officer. But that was the point of the article.

CurtMonash 11y ago
Do you really mean "question", or do you mean "challenge"? If it's "challenge", I understand your point. If it's "question", then even though I'm a white male who's unlikely to be adversely profiled, I'm still tempted to wonder whether you're doing it wrong.
- virtuabhi 11y ago
  I meant "question". I guess, it is difficult (not impossible) to empathize with what other people go through, when you are able to breeze through such interactions. Just to give an example, I (a male) can point out that women should present ideas in a better way when their ideas are trivially dismissed in meetings. But that would be brushing aside the sexism in workplace/society. Similarly, in this case we should look at the numbers, which overwhelmingly suggest that people of color (or a specific religion/region) are questioned much more frequently. I am sure that many of such people can speak with clarity and question with respect.
  - CurtMonash 11y ago
    But the police situation is fundamentally a lot simpler than the workplace one, because it is a single interaction. If you fear you are being lumped into a category by them that it is not good to belong to, you really have only two goals: 1. Avoid truly terrible outcomes (being shot, beaten, framed for a crime, etc.). 2. Get re-categorized. There are many stories in the news of people of color failing to achieve these goals, even when they are pleasant and polite. But there are few stories of pleasant, polite interaction making their situations WORSE ... except that if your politeness is ignored, it can be dangerous to repeat yourself, because that can indeed be construed as a challenge.

chojeen 11y ago

> Getting a response so nasty it's easier to get them into trouble later on. :) I know the comment was tongue-in-cheek, but it bears mentioning: when dealing with the police, your objective should be to escape the situation unscathed, not to provoke them. Remember that criminal charges, severe injury, or even death are possible consequences of any encounter with law enforcement.

Nutomic 11y ago
I guess it's different in the US, but I've never felt like I was in danger around European police.

hartator 11y ago

I am pretty sure they've asked hime where he is going.

andrewaylett 11y ago
The article says "The police hasn’t taken any real effort to engage in a dialog to discover my reasons for visiting Munich" so I'm not convinced you're correct.

pascalmemories 11y ago

It appears you've never had a real encounter with Police. I've actually worked with the Police. ALL training is about asserting power when dealing with suspects (a suspect is anyone you stop or talk to - no matter what the circumstances; think about how many people reporting a crime actually end up being arrested themselves due to something they say which incriminates them, even in something tangential and unrelated to what they are reporting). The moment someone tries to reassert control, training is to respond with additional aggressive responses to overwhelm resistance. Call in backup, draw a taser/gun/baton, physically take hold of the person etc. Try pulling things like talking about your consulting projects and asking for a guarantee about making a meeting and you'll be lucky not to be face down on the ground in under 5 seconds and spend the next 24 hours sitting in a cell. In all my years, I think I probably met less than 5 colleagues who could proportionately and reasonably interact with people, defuse tensions and remain in control (of both the situation and themselves). All the rest relied solely on the power assertion training and some couldn't even interact with other police officers without trying to assert power over each other. That always got nasty, especially when they did it to someone who, like them, didn't know how to back down or defuse a situation. Unless you have a crack team of lawyers monitoring your every move, your best approach is to be compliant and non-confrontation. Remember as much detail as you can (especially names/numbers) and make a formal complaint later on, via a lawyer if possible, once you're out of custody (and preferably out of easy reach - remember the police are 24x7, they can expend huge resources to hound you out of sheer vexatiousness. You have to sleep. They don't.).

sschueller 11y ago
Most european police forces train for de-escalation. Treating another person the way you want to be treated makes a huge difference.
anei 11y ago
What country was that?
- pascalmemories 11y ago
  The UK. My role saw interaction across different jurisdictions and the UK seemed better than some (some of the US stuff was eye popping, even based on my experience). I'm sure there are places better than the UK but I can just base things on my experience. Others may be able to comment on the good based on their experience.