4 ms·

Latin Speakers of West Virginia

55 points by jthnews 11y ago

cafard 11y ago
Pedantic quibble (but why not be pedantic here?): "Mit Brennender Sorge" was not in Latin. Whether it was the first encyclical not to be in Latin, I can't say. Also "Llewellyn is a professor at Wyoming Catholic College, and belongs to that select group of professors who consider themselves first and foremost teachers." It seems to me that such a field ought to make for that--there is always something to be gained by reexamining older texts, but it's not as if unknown books of Livy are flowing out of obscure libraries, as in Erasmus's day.
- akuchling 11y ago
  Victor Davis Hanson made a similar point in the book "Who Killed Classical Studies": every significant text has been analyzed in depth, and the remaining texts still being found are minor. (Even if a new play by Aeschylus or book by Livy turns up, it's not likely to change what we know very much.) The historical picture is pretty complete; and the archaeological details being found are mostly refining that picture, not overturning it. Counterargument: the Antikythera mechanism. There could well be more archaeological surprises, or analyses that open up an entirely new aspect.
  - jthnews 11y ago
    Yes, a lot of classical scholarship stands the test of time and, once done, need not be redone. On the other hand, a classicist's job has always involved more interpretation than discovery. A brief look at the classical scholarship from 100 years will probably convince you that interpretation is the kind of thing that needs to be updated from time to time.
- schoen 11y ago
  Also, "Laudato si'" was eventually translated into Latin (but it was published without an official Latin translation at first). According to Wikipedia, the first encyclical that was not written in Latin was "Non abbiamo bisogno", from 1931. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_abbiamo_bisogno https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_abbiamo_bisogno Both "Non abbiamo bisogno" and "Mit brennender Sorge" criticized (what were to be) Axis governments in their own languages. Maybe that was somehow thought to be a special case.
contingencies 11y ago
An interesting gathering with some commentary that rings true to my own experience: in the late 1990s I was a star Latin student in high school in Australia, though it took me ten years to get to Europe by which time I had forgotten all of it (despite or perhaps due to acquiring literacy in two language families in the mean time, including Chinese). Today - after perhaps a combined total of one year spent traveling on the European mainland - I still haven't been to Italy (the closest I've been is perhaps Tunisia or Nimes), and interest is at an all-time low. How could this loss of interest have been prevented? It seems to me that there should be some easier way for far-flung peoples with an interest in Latin to get some support. Perhaps Italy could start an Alliance française or Goethe-Institut style network of supporting institutions?
- schoen 11y ago
  It looks like Italy already does have such a network -- but they teach modern Italian, not Latin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istituto_Italiano_di_Cultura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istituto_Italiano_di_Cultura
schoen 11y ago
Wow, this article makes me miss these people intensely. I went to a Rusticatio when it was in Petaluma, California, about a decade ago, and all the same people were there! Praestantissimi estis, socii.
jfaucett 11y ago
I think the sad part with latin is that although it has had such a massive influence on every western european language it has essentially completely died out (little usage in catholic church, no speakers, decline in educational system, etc), and it does seem that no one cares. But its not only Latin where this is the case, the majority (up to 90%) of the worlds languages will die out over the next century, lost forever, many undocumented.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_language) That is what I find most troubling. The author states this, but for a language to live you have to use it "People talking to people", but very few countries try to enpower their endangered language speakers to actually use their language on a daily basis. They dont seem to promote programs for radio/tv in those languages, etc. However, it is great that people are actually using latin as it should be for oral communication, if this were the case in classrooms it would certainly be much easier on students to acquire the language (as attested to by foreign language learning methods).
- coliveira 11y ago
  First of all, Latin can not really "die" as it happens to some languages. A language dies when their last speakers die and nobody else knows how it sounds. Latin is in some sense still alive because lots of people can read and speak it, even if not fluently. Consider the similar example of Hebrew. During centuries this was a language that was not spoken natively by anyone, but remained alive through its religious literature. With the creation of the state of Israel, hebrew is now a spoken language again. Second, latin is not a natively spoken language for more than a thousand years already. The last people to speak latin natively were the educated people living in the Roman empire. Everybody else was using so-called vulgar latin that naturally evolved into some of the national languages of Europe. So, it is not a secret that latin has been "dead" and "alive" at the same time for several centuries, and this will probably not change for yet a few more centuries.
  - ars 11y ago
    Aramaic is in a similar situation. It's dead as in no native speakers, but yet alive because it is still used (and spoken) daily in study by ordinary people not just specialized academics.
joe5150 11y ago
Slightly off-topic gripe, but: "It’s only sixty-five miles from here to the Capitol Building in D.C., and the area resembles Virginia or Maryland more than Appalachia." That may well be because Charles Town is a half hour in either direction from Virginia and Maryland, and not really in Appalachia.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
    - joe5150 11y ago
      I'm not sure if you're confused about my comment or the deleted one above, but you've more or less made my point. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say Charles Town, WV "resembles Virginia or Maryland more than Appalachia" when it's directly in between those two states and all three of them have Appalachian regions. It's all beside the point anyway.
- ubernostrum 11y ago
  Yeah, the WV eastern panhandle is basically just commuter towns for people who work in DC/Baltimore/NoVA, and more properly "belongs" to that area than to the mountainous southern/western parts of the state.
zhemao 11y ago
I'm sure I'm not the only one who was momentarily confused by the fact that Charles Town, WV and Charleston, WV are two different municipalities.

55 points by jthnews 11y ago

Pedantic quibble (but why not be pedantic here?): "Mit Brennender Sorge" was not in Latin. Whether it was the first encyclical not to be in Latin, I can't say. Also "Llewellyn is a professor at Wyoming Catholic College, and belongs to that select group of professors who consider themselves first and foremost teachers." It seems to me that such a field ought to make for that--there is always something to be gained by reexamining older texts, but it's not as if unknown books of Livy are flowing out of obscure libraries, as in Erasmus's day.

akuchling 11y ago
Victor Davis Hanson made a similar point in the book "Who Killed Classical Studies": every significant text has been analyzed in depth, and the remaining texts still being found are minor. (Even if a new play by Aeschylus or book by Livy turns up, it's not likely to change what we know very much.) The historical picture is pretty complete; and the archaeological details being found are mostly refining that picture, not overturning it. Counterargument: the Antikythera mechanism. There could well be more archaeological surprises, or analyses that open up an entirely new aspect.
- jthnews 11y ago
  Yes, a lot of classical scholarship stands the test of time and, once done, need not be redone. On the other hand, a classicist's job has always involved more interpretation than discovery. A brief look at the classical scholarship from 100 years will probably convince you that interpretation is the kind of thing that needs to be updated from time to time.
schoen 11y ago
Also, "Laudato si'" was eventually translated into Latin (but it was published without an official Latin translation at first). According to Wikipedia, the first encyclical that was not written in Latin was "Non abbiamo bisogno", from 1931. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_abbiamo_bisogno https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_abbiamo_bisogno Both "Non abbiamo bisogno" and "Mit brennender Sorge" criticized (what were to be) Axis governments in their own languages. Maybe that was somehow thought to be a special case.

contingencies 11y ago

An interesting gathering with some commentary that rings true to my own experience: in the late 1990s I was a star Latin student in high school in Australia, though it took me ten years to get to Europe by which time I had forgotten all of it (despite or perhaps due to acquiring literacy in two language families in the mean time, including Chinese). Today - after perhaps a combined total of one year spent traveling on the European mainland - I still haven't been to Italy (the closest I've been is perhaps Tunisia or Nimes), and interest is at an all-time low. How could this loss of interest have been prevented? It seems to me that there should be some easier way for far-flung peoples with an interest in Latin to get some support. Perhaps Italy could start an Alliance française or Goethe-Institut style network of supporting institutions?

schoen 11y ago
It looks like Italy already does have such a network -- but they teach modern Italian, not Latin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istituto_Italiano_di_Cultura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istituto_Italiano_di_Cultura

schoen 11y ago

Wow, this article makes me miss these people intensely. I went to a Rusticatio when it was in Petaluma, California, about a decade ago, and all the same people were there! Praestantissimi estis, socii.

jfaucett 11y ago

I think the sad part with latin is that although it has had such a massive influence on every western european language it has essentially completely died out (little usage in catholic church, no speakers, decline in educational system, etc), and it does seem that no one cares. But its not only Latin where this is the case, the majority (up to 90%) of the worlds languages will die out over the next century, lost forever, many undocumented.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_language) That is what I find most troubling. The author states this, but for a language to live you have to use it "People talking to people", but very few countries try to enpower their endangered language speakers to actually use their language on a daily basis. They dont seem to promote programs for radio/tv in those languages, etc. However, it is great that people are actually using latin as it should be for oral communication, if this were the case in classrooms it would certainly be much easier on students to acquire the language (as attested to by foreign language learning methods).

coliveira 11y ago
First of all, Latin can not really "die" as it happens to some languages. A language dies when their last speakers die and nobody else knows how it sounds. Latin is in some sense still alive because lots of people can read and speak it, even if not fluently. Consider the similar example of Hebrew. During centuries this was a language that was not spoken natively by anyone, but remained alive through its religious literature. With the creation of the state of Israel, hebrew is now a spoken language again. Second, latin is not a natively spoken language for more than a thousand years already. The last people to speak latin natively were the educated people living in the Roman empire. Everybody else was using so-called vulgar latin that naturally evolved into some of the national languages of Europe. So, it is not a secret that latin has been "dead" and "alive" at the same time for several centuries, and this will probably not change for yet a few more centuries.
- ars 11y ago
  Aramaic is in a similar situation. It's dead as in no native speakers, but yet alive because it is still used (and spoken) daily in study by ordinary people not just specialized academics.

joe5150 11y ago

Slightly off-topic gripe, but: "It’s only sixty-five miles from here to the Capitol Building in D.C., and the area resembles Virginia or Maryland more than Appalachia." That may well be because Charles Town is a half hour in either direction from Virginia and Maryland, and not really in Appalachia.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - joe5150 11y ago
    I'm not sure if you're confused about my comment or the deleted one above, but you've more or less made my point. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say Charles Town, WV "resembles Virginia or Maryland more than Appalachia" when it's directly in between those two states and all three of them have Appalachian regions. It's all beside the point anyway.
ubernostrum 11y ago
Yeah, the WV eastern panhandle is basically just commuter towns for people who work in DC/Baltimore/NoVA, and more properly "belongs" to that area than to the mountainous southern/western parts of the state.

zhemao 11y ago

I'm sure I'm not the only one who was momentarily confused by the fact that Charles Town, WV and Charleston, WV are two different municipalities.