5 ms·

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out.

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out. Claimed he had MS and started getting SSDI checks of about $2K/month (I think). After he dropped out, I've seen him lift 100lb stones; frequently, he'll drive down to Arizona for fishing trips with buddies; and recently, he drove cross-country to Georgia for a HS reunion, and made it from Albuquerque to SF in 1 day. All this, despite having MS. I feel, if he can do all these activities, he can damn well work; but he's been able to fool the system for the last 3-4 years. If you look at the SSDI stats: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/dibStat.html https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/dibStat.html it is interesting to see that when the Financial Crisis happened, the number of applicants jumped drastically; a 34% increase from 2007 to 2009. And as the economy has picked up recently, the number of applications has gone down; a 15% drop from 2010 to 2014. While I do support the idea of a "safety net", I don't like the idea of people dipping into SSDI when they don't feel like working (or can't get work). Added later: (1330PST): A lot of people are saying that he could just be having a good day or two. Maybe; but he has enough good days (when I see him), there's no reason that he would not work on his "good days". Secondly: my last conversation with him (3-4 weeks ago) was about how he could go about getting a cash-only gig, and he wanted my opinion (me being a tech guy). I recommended Postmates/TaskRabbit, but he shied away from those, opting for cash gigs from Craigslist. Maybe the 1099 would have ratted him out? I dunno.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
This is infuriating. My mother is 58. Her lower spinal column was collapsed, and she's had it reconstructed using titanium plates and screws during a 6 hour surgery. She has been denied for disability by the Social Security Administration twice, and currently has to wait ~500 days for her next appeal (https://www.ssa.gov/appeals/DataSets/01_NetStat_Report.html https://www.ssa.gov/appeals/DataSets/01_NetStat_Report.html) in front of an panel of judges (this backlog is caused by Congress providing insufficient funding to process said backlog). How the hell are people who don't need disability getting approved, and the people who don't need it are stuck in purgatory?
- tsotha 11y ago
  From what I can tell you'll get disability if you keep bothering them long enough. I know guys who are on disability for lower back pain with no physical evidence, i.e. x-rays are normal. They all got turned down a few times at first, but I get the impression if you keep at it long enough they give you benefits just to get rid of you.
- icelancer 11y ago
  >How the hell are people who don't need disability getting approved, and the people who don't need it are stuck in purgatory? Because bureaucracy basically guarantees this exact injustice will occur.
- derekp7 11y ago
  Same here -- my GF has Fibromyalgia. She was working up till a couple years ago, and now can't drive due to the pain meds. After 3 rejections, she's finally getting a court date at the end of the year. From what I gather, since there has been a larger number of people filing for disability, they are automatically rejecting applicants several times hoping that they will get a job (if they really don't need the disability). Then, if you make it to the court date, that itself is evidence that you are disabled enough. Now I don't agree with this, but apparently this is the way they are running the program now.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    > From what I gather, since there has been a larger number of people filing for disability, they are automatically rejecting applicants several times hoping that they will get a job (if they really don't need the disability). Then, if you make it to the court date, that itself is evidence that you are disabled enough. This disgusts me on a level I can't even describe. My mother is lucky: I live a modest life, combined with a tech worker salary, means I can support her without any impact to either of us. Without my job though, she would be homeless.
- itsybitsycoder 11y ago
  He doesn't know whether his neighbor needs disability or not, he's just guessing. MS symptoms are really variable. The fact that he has a few good days doesn't mean he can hold down a steady job.
dcosson 11y ago
> if he can do all these activities, he can damn well work Yeah, screw him for living life to the fullest while he still can, instead of continuing heavy physical labor every day until he's in a wheelchair. In all seriousness, it's not like disease is completely black & white and there's always an obvious day up until which you can easily work. Just the mental & emotional drain of coping with something like this must make it incredibly difficult to get up every day and get excited about working. If our economy can't provide a safety net for people in tough in-between situations like this, then let's make our systems more efficient rather than force a bunch of people to do something they don't feel up for just because it's a job.
- XorNot 11y ago
  Also that humans are terrible statisticians and tend to only record notable events, not all events. The guy could easily spend 80+% of his life unable to do those things, and you'd still say "pull his disability" based on the few good days he had.
itsybitsycoder 11y ago
What do you expect people to do when they can't find work and don't have access to any other safety net? Is it really worse for someone to lie in order to keep food on the table and a roof over their head, than for us (as a society) to let people starve or go homeless? The fact that the SSDI stats jumped during the financial crisis shows that people aren't applying just because they're lazy and don't want to work. They're applying because the work isn't there, otherwise the numbers would have already been just as high before the crisis. You also have to consider that a lot of these people may be legitimately "too disabled to work" during a job shortage but be fine when there is more demand for workers. When employers are desperate for workers, they're willing to make more accommodations than they would when there are hundreds of applicants per opening. MS is a great example of this because its symptoms are so variable from day to day. My mom has had MS since before I was born and she's been able to find part-time work when the economy is doing good because some employers are willing to accept that she needs to work shorter shifts, take longer breaks and will call in sick more often. During harder times she's outcompeted by applicants who don't have these issues. It's very possible your neighbor is only capable of lifting 100lb stones 2 or 3 days of the week. Hard to find stable work that way.
Shivetya 11y ago
the most common disability out there is obesity, at least from appearances sake. More than one coworker has gone out for this which is surprising to me because until they did you would never have expected it. Yeah they were large but to get out on disability and stay there? Really? Of course patient survey's don't help this at all. I do know my doctor will rarely if ever raise the notion that a patient's weight is the cause of their problems, from bad back, weak joints, pain in walking, or diabetes. Why? Surveys. You get whacked more than a few times and suddenly its not worth the frustration. Sadly there are movements that are pushing for acceptance. I wonder how many other shake their head in annoyance at all the obese who have stickers and park up front at the store? Its like ready content for people of wal mart. As for the SSDI, there are so many cases of fraud and its not uncommon to read about some disability mill getting caught and having to pay out. However you won't see many of those receiving their SSDI losing it. Its even worse when just you can make believe a mental disability and get it. There was that famous case from 2011 where a guy was claiming disability, wearing diapers, having nurses attend, and more.
nickff 11y ago
This has been extensvely studied, and it has been found that many people realized they could get much more money in the long term by claiming disability instead of simply claiming various unemployment benefits.[1] The number of people on the disability rolls went up substantially during the great recession when the number of unemployed or marginally employed people increased drastically, and many of them decided to claim disability rather than trying to go out and look for new jobs. What is particularly distressing about this phenomenon is that the people on disability are discouraged from looking from insecure jobs, because disability benefits are a guaranteed long term income stream which is forfeit in perpetuity upon employment. It is clear that many of the people receiving these government benefits understand the system quite well, as a substantial portion of them are working off the books, to get extra income while avoiding loss of long term benefits. [1] http://economics.mit.edu/files/7388 http://economics.mit.edu/files/7388
paulcole 11y ago
You're taking anecdata from anecdata. "I know one guy who is potentially abusing disability. I have seen him on ones of occasions do something that makes me think he should be working."
- tsotha 11y ago
  While what you're saying is true, there's an amazing jump in the number of disabled people that coincides with the onset of the recession in 2008.
  - discardorama 11y ago
    Thank you for pointing that out. That is why I had included that link, because, well, anecdata.
healthanomthrow 11y ago
I'd caution you against making easy assumptions about other people's health. MS is an episodic disease, which means that there are times when patients are near normal, and times when they're entirely incapacitated. Have you considered that you might have seen him to these things when he's not experiencing an episode? Not to mention that disability is fairly strict and that MS would be extremely hard to fake (pretty sure that MS diagnosis is usual made on the basis on MRI imaging). Also, to take a very personal example, I've also got a neurological condition (not MS) that is fairly episodic. I'm fortunate that I'm have got a desk job as a software developer and so I haven't had to seek disability (despite being told by my physician he'd support an application). If I had to work going physical labor, I wouldn't have a choice but to apply for disability, since when my condition flares up I'm fairly immobile. Even walking short distances is difficult. There's simply no way I could hold down a 5 day/week physical labor job. That said, when things are going well, I can be fairly active. Today I was out working on my deck. I take my kids to the zoo and walk around the entire park. If I had had to take disability, would people say the same things of me?
Mz 11y ago
I am medically handicapped. I do not qualify for disability for basically bureaucratic reasons. But I do have some income without working and I do freelance work and had food stamps for a time. Being able to quit my corporate job has allowed me to get healthier and a lot of people would be surprised to find I am handicapped. I mostly walk everywhere and can walk for hours at a time. I also have days when I fall down because I am extremely neurologically impaired, when I have blinding pain accompanied by profuse vomiting and so on. Being able to quit working can make a handicapped person genuinely more functional. But that doesn't mean they are employable and it doesn't mean the performance you see and judge as evidence of being "able bodied" really adds up to employability. In other words, he can lift 100 lb stones because he does it when he damn well feels like it, on a good day, at a time of his choosing, under circumstances of his arranging -- none of which applies to typical working conditions.
lfowles 11y ago
Do you suspect you'd be seeing him on bad days? Personally, I'd be making like a recluse.
SovietDissident 11y ago
The question is: why have disability claims skyrocketed at least since the 90s? Are Americans that much more disabled (than people of the Depression, WWII and Vietnam generations, and beyond)? It strikes me as being highly implausible. Based on some of the data presented here and elsewhere, it seems like it's become another welfare program for many people, with some "deserving" individuals in between. Some people, when not forced to work for their survival, will eschew it. Others see it as free money, and just work for cash on the side. To the moral question of the safety net: is it just for one to have earned X dollars (and spent Y amount of one's life) working at a job, only to have the fruits of one's labor forcefully taken away to fund his neighbor's welfare/housing/food/schooling/etc.? I would argue no.[0] If someone is disabled or destitute, he can appeal to the charity of his family members, fellow human beings, or philanthropy to help him out. There are plenty of people (many on these boards, I imagine) who have excess resources and would surely help a starving man in the street or an orphan. Indeed, voluntary aid would fix the issue of worthiness which you raise: if you are worthy of help, you will be judged worthy to receive it. (Charities and mutual aid societies have existed since at least the 19th century, and have proliferated even more-widely since.[1]) If not, time to start providing value to others (i.e., labor) and receiving money in exchange. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. [0] http://philo.abhinav.ac.in/Objectivism/Ayn%20Rand%20-%20The%20Virtue%20of%20Selfishness.pdf http://philo.abhinav.ac.in/Objectivism/Ayn%20Rand%20-%20The%... [1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/objectivist/2011/11/18/america-before-the-entitlement-state/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/objectivist/2011/11/18/america-b...

toomuchtodo 11y ago

This is infuriating. My mother is 58. Her lower spinal column was collapsed, and she's had it reconstructed using titanium plates and screws during a 6 hour surgery. She has been denied for disability by the Social Security Administration twice, and currently has to wait ~500 days for her next appeal (https://www.ssa.gov/appeals/DataSets/01_NetStat_Report.html https://www.ssa.gov/appeals/DataSets/01_NetStat_Report.html) in front of an panel of judges (this backlog is caused by Congress providing insufficient funding to process said backlog). How the hell are people who don't need disability getting approved, and the people who don't need it are stuck in purgatory?

tsotha 11y ago
From what I can tell you'll get disability if you keep bothering them long enough. I know guys who are on disability for lower back pain with no physical evidence, i.e. x-rays are normal. They all got turned down a few times at first, but I get the impression if you keep at it long enough they give you benefits just to get rid of you.
icelancer 11y ago
>How the hell are people who don't need disability getting approved, and the people who don't need it are stuck in purgatory? Because bureaucracy basically guarantees this exact injustice will occur.
derekp7 11y ago
Same here -- my GF has Fibromyalgia. She was working up till a couple years ago, and now can't drive due to the pain meds. After 3 rejections, she's finally getting a court date at the end of the year. From what I gather, since there has been a larger number of people filing for disability, they are automatically rejecting applicants several times hoping that they will get a job (if they really don't need the disability). Then, if you make it to the court date, that itself is evidence that you are disabled enough. Now I don't agree with this, but apparently this is the way they are running the program now.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > From what I gather, since there has been a larger number of people filing for disability, they are automatically rejecting applicants several times hoping that they will get a job (if they really don't need the disability). Then, if you make it to the court date, that itself is evidence that you are disabled enough. This disgusts me on a level I can't even describe. My mother is lucky: I live a modest life, combined with a tech worker salary, means I can support her without any impact to either of us. Without my job though, she would be homeless.
itsybitsycoder 11y ago
He doesn't know whether his neighbor needs disability or not, he's just guessing. MS symptoms are really variable. The fact that he has a few good days doesn't mean he can hold down a steady job.

dcosson 11y ago

> if he can do all these activities, he can damn well work Yeah, screw him for living life to the fullest while he still can, instead of continuing heavy physical labor every day until he's in a wheelchair. In all seriousness, it's not like disease is completely black & white and there's always an obvious day up until which you can easily work. Just the mental & emotional drain of coping with something like this must make it incredibly difficult to get up every day and get excited about working. If our economy can't provide a safety net for people in tough in-between situations like this, then let's make our systems more efficient rather than force a bunch of people to do something they don't feel up for just because it's a job.

XorNot 11y ago
Also that humans are terrible statisticians and tend to only record notable events, not all events. The guy could easily spend 80+% of his life unable to do those things, and you'd still say "pull his disability" based on the few good days he had.

itsybitsycoder 11y ago

What do you expect people to do when they can't find work and don't have access to any other safety net? Is it really worse for someone to lie in order to keep food on the table and a roof over their head, than for us (as a society) to let people starve or go homeless? The fact that the SSDI stats jumped during the financial crisis shows that people aren't applying just because they're lazy and don't want to work. They're applying because the work isn't there, otherwise the numbers would have already been just as high before the crisis. You also have to consider that a lot of these people may be legitimately "too disabled to work" during a job shortage but be fine when there is more demand for workers. When employers are desperate for workers, they're willing to make more accommodations than they would when there are hundreds of applicants per opening. MS is a great example of this because its symptoms are so variable from day to day. My mom has had MS since before I was born and she's been able to find part-time work when the economy is doing good because some employers are willing to accept that she needs to work shorter shifts, take longer breaks and will call in sick more often. During harder times she's outcompeted by applicants who don't have these issues. It's very possible your neighbor is only capable of lifting 100lb stones 2 or 3 days of the week. Hard to find stable work that way.

Shivetya 11y ago

the most common disability out there is obesity, at least from appearances sake. More than one coworker has gone out for this which is surprising to me because until they did you would never have expected it. Yeah they were large but to get out on disability and stay there? Really? Of course patient survey's don't help this at all. I do know my doctor will rarely if ever raise the notion that a patient's weight is the cause of their problems, from bad back, weak joints, pain in walking, or diabetes. Why? Surveys. You get whacked more than a few times and suddenly its not worth the frustration. Sadly there are movements that are pushing for acceptance. I wonder how many other shake their head in annoyance at all the obese who have stickers and park up front at the store? Its like ready content for people of wal mart. As for the SSDI, there are so many cases of fraud and its not uncommon to read about some disability mill getting caught and having to pay out. However you won't see many of those receiving their SSDI losing it. Its even worse when just you can make believe a mental disability and get it. There was that famous case from 2011 where a guy was claiming disability, wearing diapers, having nurses attend, and more.

nickff 11y ago

This has been extensvely studied, and it has been found that many people realized they could get much more money in the long term by claiming disability instead of simply claiming various unemployment benefits.[1] The number of people on the disability rolls went up substantially during the great recession when the number of unemployed or marginally employed people increased drastically, and many of them decided to claim disability rather than trying to go out and look for new jobs. What is particularly distressing about this phenomenon is that the people on disability are discouraged from looking from insecure jobs, because disability benefits are a guaranteed long term income stream which is forfeit in perpetuity upon employment. It is clear that many of the people receiving these government benefits understand the system quite well, as a substantial portion of them are working off the books, to get extra income while avoiding loss of long term benefits. [1] http://economics.mit.edu/files/7388 http://economics.mit.edu/files/7388

paulcole 11y ago

You're taking anecdata from anecdata. "I know one guy who is potentially abusing disability. I have seen him on ones of occasions do something that makes me think he should be working."

tsotha 11y ago
While what you're saying is true, there's an amazing jump in the number of disabled people that coincides with the onset of the recession in 2008.
- discardorama 11y ago
  Thank you for pointing that out. That is why I had included that link, because, well, anecdata.

healthanomthrow 11y ago

I'd caution you against making easy assumptions about other people's health. MS is an episodic disease, which means that there are times when patients are near normal, and times when they're entirely incapacitated. Have you considered that you might have seen him to these things when he's not experiencing an episode? Not to mention that disability is fairly strict and that MS would be extremely hard to fake (pretty sure that MS diagnosis is usual made on the basis on MRI imaging). Also, to take a very personal example, I've also got a neurological condition (not MS) that is fairly episodic. I'm fortunate that I'm have got a desk job as a software developer and so I haven't had to seek disability (despite being told by my physician he'd support an application). If I had to work going physical labor, I wouldn't have a choice but to apply for disability, since when my condition flares up I'm fairly immobile. Even walking short distances is difficult. There's simply no way I could hold down a 5 day/week physical labor job. That said, when things are going well, I can be fairly active. Today I was out working on my deck. I take my kids to the zoo and walk around the entire park. If I had had to take disability, would people say the same things of me?

Mz 11y ago

I am medically handicapped. I do not qualify for disability for basically bureaucratic reasons. But I do have some income without working and I do freelance work and had food stamps for a time. Being able to quit my corporate job has allowed me to get healthier and a lot of people would be surprised to find I am handicapped. I mostly walk everywhere and can walk for hours at a time. I also have days when I fall down because I am extremely neurologically impaired, when I have blinding pain accompanied by profuse vomiting and so on. Being able to quit working can make a handicapped person genuinely more functional. But that doesn't mean they are employable and it doesn't mean the performance you see and judge as evidence of being "able bodied" really adds up to employability. In other words, he can lift 100 lb stones because he does it when he damn well feels like it, on a good day, at a time of his choosing, under circumstances of his arranging -- none of which applies to typical working conditions.

lfowles 11y ago

Do you suspect you'd be seeing him on bad days? Personally, I'd be making like a recluse.

SovietDissident 11y ago

The question is: why have disability claims skyrocketed at least since the 90s? Are Americans that much more disabled (than people of the Depression, WWII and Vietnam generations, and beyond)? It strikes me as being highly implausible. Based on some of the data presented here and elsewhere, it seems like it's become another welfare program for many people, with some "deserving" individuals in between. Some people, when not forced to work for their survival, will eschew it. Others see it as free money, and just work for cash on the side. To the moral question of the safety net: is it just for one to have earned X dollars (and spent Y amount of one's life) working at a job, only to have the fruits of one's labor forcefully taken away to fund his neighbor's welfare/housing/food/schooling/etc.? I would argue no.[0] If someone is disabled or destitute, he can appeal to the charity of his family members, fellow human beings, or philanthropy to help him out. There are plenty of people (many on these boards, I imagine) who have excess resources and would surely help a starving man in the street or an orphan. Indeed, voluntary aid would fix the issue of worthiness which you raise: if you are worthy of help, you will be judged worthy to receive it. (Charities and mutual aid societies have existed since at least the 19th century, and have proliferated even more-widely since.[1]) If not, time to start providing value to others (i.e., labor) and receiving money in exchange. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. [0] http://philo.abhinav.ac.in/Objectivism/Ayn%20Rand%20-%20The%20Virtue%20of%20Selfishness.pdf http://philo.abhinav.ac.in/Objectivism/Ayn%20Rand%20-%20The%... [1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/objectivist/2011/11/18/america-before-the-entitlement-state/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/objectivist/2011/11/18/america-b...