4 ms·

I agree with you but the regular consumer doesn't know the difference between LAN or WAN, nor what a VPN or SSH are. They just want it to work, and that's diffi

I agree with you but the regular consumer doesn't know the difference between LAN or WAN, nor what a VPN or SSH are. They just want it to work, and that's difficult to achieve unless you are proficient with basic networking concepts. For the tinkerer or early adapter, there are steps in the right direction. For the "everyday" person, this tech is still a few years away, in my opinion.

moron4hire 11y ago
Maybe our continued repetition that "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference..." is why "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference".
- bardworx 11y ago
  > Maybe our continued repetition that "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference..." is why "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference". I've worked helpdesk for users and being exposed to regular, everyday, computer users I can attest that the consumer doesn't know the difference because they don't care enough to learn. One of my first questions was: "Did you try pressing the power button?" I would get silence....then a quick "Thank You" ... then a dead line. Another anecdote: My mother is a programmer (DB2, Cobol, SQL) for a financial institution. She is of middle class in NYC and educated. She still uses an iPhone 3g and the iPad i got her for her birthday, three years ago, has been turned on exactly 5 times. That's the everyday user...and you want her to automate a home?
  - moron4hire 11y ago
    Working a help desk you don't really see the every day user, you see the subset of every day users who had problems. And frankly, when I call help-desks, I play dumb, because it's easier then convincing them that yes, I did check that it was plugged in, yes, I did power cycle. Your mother's lack of using her iPad is not an indication of her inability to figure out things outside of her wheelhouse, it's the lack of compelling use case for the iPad for certain people. Home automation also lacks a compelling use case. But security does not. The reason securing consumer networks is so hard is not because "users are lusers", it's because security professionals have no idea about UX, UX professionals have no idea about security, and they both treat each other like shit.
    - bardworx 11y ago
      >Working a help desk you don't really see the every day user, you see the subset of every day users who had problems. I didn't work a help-desk for a bank or large corporation but for a hospitality group where I "touched" every user and store. I had a more intimate relationship with all of our staff because they depended on the technology which made us money. >And frankly, when I call help-desks, I play dumb, because it's easier then convincing them that yes, I did check that it was plugged in, yes, I did power cycle. This isn't an option in my job since if a Manager "played dumb" while their POS is down, its really their neck on the line. It was in the best interest of the user to have the system working as they earned bonuses on throughput and other metrics. It seems that you're attempting to justify your previous points, until this: >Home automation also lacks a compelling use case. But security does not. The reason securing consumer networks is so hard is not because "users are losers", it's because security professionals have no idea about UX, UX professionals have no idea about security, and they both treat each other like shit. This is a great comment and I completely agree with you; between compelling use cases, complicated UI/UX, and initial investment of time to set it up, most people aren't tempted to enter this realm. The most compelling use of simple automation are Android NFC stickers (http://www.amazon.com/NFC-tags-Writeable-Programmable-Money-Back/dp/B00CE3IC74 http://www.amazon.com/NFC-tags-Writeable-Programmable-Money-...). I got them for my brother-in-law and he uses them to close his garage door or get weather in the morning, etc. simple and effective.
      - moron4hire 11y ago
        Oh, POS systems. I have no confidence that your software developers were even remotely competent, then.
      - jdboyd 11y ago
        How does an NFC tag close a garage door?
        Drdrdrq 11y ago
        I am guessing it only triggers the process of closing the garage door - it determines when the doors should close. I can't imagine how it could do anything else.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    > That's the everyday user...and you want her to automate a home? No. I want to automate mine. Here's a thing - every company tries to jump for the big market of "normal people" immediately. They got used to completely ignoring the tech-savvy with mobile tech over the last decade. So they fail making something compelling for regular users, and refuse to make something for techies.
    - moron4hire 11y ago
      Actually worked in this space a few years ago. The problem is that there is no money in serving the DIY community. They are too small of a market to support multiple companies doing R&D, especially considering a significant portion of the DIY market would often prefer to hack something out of a RaspberryPi or similar. Or, at least, that was the perception at the time. The company I worked for thought it meant they had to go after hotel installs. But that meant partnering with the devil himself, as we were just an engineering firm and didn't have any sales in house. It became a race to the bottom and we ended up spending an inordinate amount of time trying to fix issues with substandard hardware. Literally. There is a standard, and the hardware our sales and distribution partner was demanding we used did not meet it. We were no longer partners. They became our slave drivers. I was happy the day I got fired. Apparently, we were supposed to be happy with our lack of progress and just show up to work for 80 hours a week and keep doing this forever. Apparently, I was too argumentative. They're 12 years old now and still call themselves a startup.
      - pjc50 11y ago
        Is there a market outside DIY installs? Isn't home automation a subset of home improvement?
        moron4hire 11y ago
        Luxury dwellings. So no, there's still no market for just the devices, as such customers want a full-service installation plan, usually coupled with home theater and security, so it's all integrated.
        11y ago
- mcphage 11y ago
  > Maybe our continued repetition that "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference..." is why "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference". People have other stuff to worry about. They've got their own lives, their own jobs, their own hobbies. Things like LAN/WAN, VPNs, and SSH aren't important enough to make everybody have to learn them. Somebody needs to understand it, sure. But not everybody; it would just be a waste of time and effort.
eveningcoffee 11y ago
Another thing people may not realize is how cloud connected sensors could be used. Let say you want to know if people are having less sex (well, it may come out from the search or browsing history but maybe not) and you want to use this information to target advertisements of services or products. So how would you do that using cloud connected sensors? Easiest method is to use CO2 sensor in the bedroom (assuming that this is the place where usually people do have sex). Rate of CO2 production is correlated with the rate of energy usage and spike in CO2 levels around certain time may mark people having higher bodily activities (and when located in the bedroom it usually means sex). Change in the frequency of these spikes may mean the change in the frequency of having sex. As ads do not have to be that precise, this is probably enough data. Another method is to use a temperature sensor. As higher bodily activity would consume more energy, it should then rise the room temperature that could be detected with sensitive enough temperature sensor. This method is more evolved as the spikes in the temperature could be also caused by the rise in outside temperature or the temperature difference might be very small when windows are open, or may be caused by fall of temperature outside that heating system tries to over compensate. But it is likely that there exists distinguishable change profile and it is likely possible to mitigate outside effects with additional sensors.
- IgorPartola 11y ago
  I wonder how much a candle or a fireplace could skew your test.
  - eveningcoffee 11y ago
    Interesting question. I will speculate without actual data for entertainment purposes. I would assume that a candle would produce more or less constant output in heat and CO2 and you likely will light it before having sex and not in the middle of it. I would also assume that two exercising humans will produce more output than a candle. So it would produce some bump in the baseline but you still would have a measurable spike in it. You could also distinguish the candle from the light bulb when you have CO2 reading. Of course it would be also better if you could execute controlled tests i.e. you could control the heating and possibly the ventilation. As the temperature sensor in the room is usually in the form of thermostat then the first one would be viable. A fireplace would deplete oxygen from the room but (unless one without exhaust) will not increase the room CO2 concentration. But it will likely introduce an additional airflow. So this would be more complicated case. But you likely could trick the users in the configuration phase to give you additional information to make strange cases more explainable. I.e. you could ask such harmless question like do you have a fireplace.

moron4hire 11y ago

Maybe our continued repetition that "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference..." is why "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference".

bardworx 11y ago
> Maybe our continued repetition that "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference..." is why "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference". I've worked helpdesk for users and being exposed to regular, everyday, computer users I can attest that the consumer doesn't know the difference because they don't care enough to learn. One of my first questions was: "Did you try pressing the power button?" I would get silence....then a quick "Thank You" ... then a dead line. Another anecdote: My mother is a programmer (DB2, Cobol, SQL) for a financial institution. She is of middle class in NYC and educated. She still uses an iPhone 3g and the iPad i got her for her birthday, three years ago, has been turned on exactly 5 times. That's the everyday user...and you want her to automate a home?
- moron4hire 11y ago
  Working a help desk you don't really see the every day user, you see the subset of every day users who had problems. And frankly, when I call help-desks, I play dumb, because it's easier then convincing them that yes, I did check that it was plugged in, yes, I did power cycle. Your mother's lack of using her iPad is not an indication of her inability to figure out things outside of her wheelhouse, it's the lack of compelling use case for the iPad for certain people. Home automation also lacks a compelling use case. But security does not. The reason securing consumer networks is so hard is not because "users are lusers", it's because security professionals have no idea about UX, UX professionals have no idea about security, and they both treat each other like shit.
  - bardworx 11y ago
    >Working a help desk you don't really see the every day user, you see the subset of every day users who had problems. I didn't work a help-desk for a bank or large corporation but for a hospitality group where I "touched" every user and store. I had a more intimate relationship with all of our staff because they depended on the technology which made us money. >And frankly, when I call help-desks, I play dumb, because it's easier then convincing them that yes, I did check that it was plugged in, yes, I did power cycle. This isn't an option in my job since if a Manager "played dumb" while their POS is down, its really their neck on the line. It was in the best interest of the user to have the system working as they earned bonuses on throughput and other metrics. It seems that you're attempting to justify your previous points, until this: >Home automation also lacks a compelling use case. But security does not. The reason securing consumer networks is so hard is not because "users are losers", it's because security professionals have no idea about UX, UX professionals have no idea about security, and they both treat each other like shit. This is a great comment and I completely agree with you; between compelling use cases, complicated UI/UX, and initial investment of time to set it up, most people aren't tempted to enter this realm. The most compelling use of simple automation are Android NFC stickers (http://www.amazon.com/NFC-tags-Writeable-Programmable-Money-Back/dp/B00CE3IC74 http://www.amazon.com/NFC-tags-Writeable-Programmable-Money-...). I got them for my brother-in-law and he uses them to close his garage door or get weather in the morning, etc. simple and effective.
    - moron4hire 11y ago
      Oh, POS systems. I have no confidence that your software developers were even remotely competent, then.
    - jdboyd 11y ago
      How does an NFC tag close a garage door?
      - Drdrdrq 11y ago
        I am guessing it only triggers the process of closing the garage door - it determines when the doors should close. I can't imagine how it could do anything else.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  > That's the everyday user...and you want her to automate a home? No. I want to automate mine. Here's a thing - every company tries to jump for the big market of "normal people" immediately. They got used to completely ignoring the tech-savvy with mobile tech over the last decade. So they fail making something compelling for regular users, and refuse to make something for techies.
  - moron4hire 11y ago
    Actually worked in this space a few years ago. The problem is that there is no money in serving the DIY community. They are too small of a market to support multiple companies doing R&D, especially considering a significant portion of the DIY market would often prefer to hack something out of a RaspberryPi or similar. Or, at least, that was the perception at the time. The company I worked for thought it meant they had to go after hotel installs. But that meant partnering with the devil himself, as we were just an engineering firm and didn't have any sales in house. It became a race to the bottom and we ended up spending an inordinate amount of time trying to fix issues with substandard hardware. Literally. There is a standard, and the hardware our sales and distribution partner was demanding we used did not meet it. We were no longer partners. They became our slave drivers. I was happy the day I got fired. Apparently, we were supposed to be happy with our lack of progress and just show up to work for 80 hours a week and keep doing this forever. Apparently, I was too argumentative. They're 12 years old now and still call themselves a startup.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      Is there a market outside DIY installs? Isn't home automation a subset of home improvement?
      - moron4hire 11y ago
        Luxury dwellings. So no, there's still no market for just the devices, as such customers want a full-service installation plan, usually coupled with home theater and security, so it's all integrated.
      - 11y ago
mcphage 11y ago
> Maybe our continued repetition that "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference..." is why "the regular consumer doesn't know the difference". People have other stuff to worry about. They've got their own lives, their own jobs, their own hobbies. Things like LAN/WAN, VPNs, and SSH aren't important enough to make everybody have to learn them. Somebody needs to understand it, sure. But not everybody; it would just be a waste of time and effort.

eveningcoffee 11y ago

Another thing people may not realize is how cloud connected sensors could be used. Let say you want to know if people are having less sex (well, it may come out from the search or browsing history but maybe not) and you want to use this information to target advertisements of services or products. So how would you do that using cloud connected sensors? Easiest method is to use CO2 sensor in the bedroom (assuming that this is the place where usually people do have sex). Rate of CO2 production is correlated with the rate of energy usage and spike in CO2 levels around certain time may mark people having higher bodily activities (and when located in the bedroom it usually means sex). Change in the frequency of these spikes may mean the change in the frequency of having sex. As ads do not have to be that precise, this is probably enough data. Another method is to use a temperature sensor. As higher bodily activity would consume more energy, it should then rise the room temperature that could be detected with sensitive enough temperature sensor. This method is more evolved as the spikes in the temperature could be also caused by the rise in outside temperature or the temperature difference might be very small when windows are open, or may be caused by fall of temperature outside that heating system tries to over compensate. But it is likely that there exists distinguishable change profile and it is likely possible to mitigate outside effects with additional sensors.

IgorPartola 11y ago
I wonder how much a candle or a fireplace could skew your test.
- eveningcoffee 11y ago
  Interesting question. I will speculate without actual data for entertainment purposes. I would assume that a candle would produce more or less constant output in heat and CO2 and you likely will light it before having sex and not in the middle of it. I would also assume that two exercising humans will produce more output than a candle. So it would produce some bump in the baseline but you still would have a measurable spike in it. You could also distinguish the candle from the light bulb when you have CO2 reading. Of course it would be also better if you could execute controlled tests i.e. you could control the heating and possibly the ventilation. As the temperature sensor in the room is usually in the form of thermostat then the first one would be viable. A fireplace would deplete oxygen from the room but (unless one without exhaust) will not increase the room CO2 concentration. But it will likely introduce an additional airflow. So this would be more complicated case. But you likely could trick the users in the configuration phase to give you additional information to make strange cases more explainable. I.e. you could ask such harmless question like do you have a fireplace.