6 ms·

Immigrants invest in U.S. businesses in exchange for visas

17 points by iamelgringo 17y ago

patio11 17y ago
This is exactly what I have in mind when I say that instead of a Startup Visa program I'd like to see a Visas For Sale program. It keeps everything on the up and up and reduces administration costs.
- lutorm 17y ago
  Um, would you mind explaining how this program would fill the need for a startup visa? I don't know how many people applying to the startup school have $500k -$1M to fork over before even starting to work on their startup, but I doubt it'll be a resounding success...
  - patio11 17y ago
    The Startup Visa proposals seem to be "Let's anoint a group of VCs or angels with the ability to decide who gets to come to the US", which I think opens the possibility for ahem corruption and gives a governmental or semi-governmental group the authority to pick winners in the market. If you just sold visas, it would just be another capital-raising barrier to hop over. No nonsense about "Must create 10 jobs" or "Must win the favor of a particular bureaucrat", just "Convince someone -- anyone -- that you're a good enough risk to put #{PRICE_OF_VISA} on the line." You could also let the market price the visas for you if you want, via an auction mechanic or something similar.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    None of the "startup visa" proposals give you a free visa just because you want to apply to startup school.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  I'd like to see borders disappear. I'd like to see visas disappear.
  - catzaa 17y ago
    Be careful what you wish for. A world without borders might sound nice in a John Lennon song, but in practice it is not. The domino effect can happen – one state collapses and the people move to another state, which strains that state’s government and collapses that economy too. I live in South Africa, and we basically have an open border policy (since the laws do not get implemented). There are a lot of illegal immigrants which significantly increases crime, puts strain on services and creates social problems. We have a broad unemployment rate of 40% - we can’t even provide jobs for our own people, let alone 4+ million illegal immigrants.
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      It's not a 'nice John Lennon song', it is really effectively the only way we will ever be able to make forward movements rather than two steps forward one step back. It's entirely for selfish reasons that I would like such a world to come about because it is the only future that I can envision where enough people will be pulling in the same direction to start solving the problems that we have. We are currently wasting roughly 60% of the worlds mental capacity, we can not afford to continue to live in such a wasteful way much longer. Pieces of paper to hold people out of places that they wish to go to ought to be a thing of the past. I've lived in poverty and I've been too rich for my comfort and pretty much all the stages in between, there is no way that 4 million illegal immigrants would converge on any place in the world because they would be bringing their homes with them, literally. What will happen is that just like with water vessels connected by a tube there will be a period of 'sloshing', overcompensating back and forth until some kind of equilibrium weighted by local conditions is arrived at. That probably won't be a pleasant thing for many of us, but the sooner we get it over with the better. The only people scared of that are those that are afraid to compete, and with the headstart that we've got competition should be the least of our worries. The alternatives are very much worse. As long as you are thinking in terms of 'our own people' you are completely missing my point, there is but one people.
      - catzaa 17y ago
        > able to make forward movements rather than two steps forward one step back. The result of such an approach would be a repeated one step back (as with the above process I described). > It's entirely for selfish reasons There is nothing wrong with rational self-interest. Whether you like it or not, you act in your own self-interest repeatedly. Nothing prevents you from moving to 3rd world countries (instead of moving a third world country to you). > Pieces of paper to hold people out of places that they wish to go to ought to be a thing of the past. Why? People only come into my home when I invite them inside. Why should it be different with countries? > there is no way that 4 million illegal immigrants would converge on any place in the world because they would be bringing their homes with them, literally. You would be surprised. > The only people scared of that are those that are afraid to compete, and with the headstart that we've got competition should be the least of our worries. Competition is the least of your problems. The first and biggest problem is crime – crime levels (including organised crime and violent crime) that increases extremely rapidly. The second problem is any public services that will simply get flooded – a good example in my country is health care. You will simply end up without access to decent health care. The third problem is private property. Immigrants will squat on your land depriving you of its use (without compensation). If you own land near the land where they squatted, it will be virtually worthless because of the associated theft and crime (see point one). And fourthly, if immigrants vote, they will most likely vote for a kleptocratic socialist-lair which will increase your taxes and thoroughly destroy what is left of the country.
faragon 17y ago
I'm a somewhat european computer scientist, and I would love to work for 2 or 3 years in the U.S. just for fun and getting a better english, but with such immigration laws I prefer to stay in Europe. By the way, you highly skilled americans are welcome to work and live here ;-)
- rmanocha 17y ago
  I don't know about highly skilled americans, but Europe's immigration policies seem to be no better for highly skilled asians. P.S. - I'm an Indian.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Exactly. And I'm ashamed of it more than I can express in a forum but there seem to be enough xenophobes here to ensure that's going to be the status quo for quite a while. Even within the EU there is plenty of that, witness the friction between western Europeans and immigrants from Poland or Romania. We have a long way to go in this respect.
  - faragon 17y ago
    Highly skilled people should have little problems with visas, however, it depends on the country (Europe has heterogeneous immigration policies).
  - catzaa 17y ago
    The UK has good laws (you can get a highly skilled Visa without major problems). Unfortunately some of the nicest countries it is difficult (e.g. Ireland).
tokenadult 17y ago
My usual question: what country in the world offers a better visa policy than the United States? A) In what country of the world could an American college graduate in a high-tech major field get off the plane and immediately start working with the prospect of long-term employment and permanent residence? B) In what country of the world could a college graduate from India or China in a high-tech major field get off the plane and immediately start working with the prospect of long-term employment and permanent residence? C) In what country of the world could a college graduate from an arbitrary country with an arbitrary college major get off the plane and immediately start working with the prospect of long-term employment and permanent residence? D) In what country of the world could a person from an arbitrary country with no schooling beyond compulsory instruction get off the plane and immediately start working with the prospect of long-term employment and permanent residence? E) More generally, which countries in the world enjoy net immigration rather than net emigration?
- kmt 17y ago
  Canada?
  - tokenadult 17y ago
    Which questions above were you linking to Canada by your reply? I know for sure that Canada has a different immigration policy from the United States. Here I would be curious to know whether most hackers think that Canada's policies are easier on, harder on, or about the same as United States policies for would-be hacker immigrants.
    - petewarden 17y ago
      The UK, Canada and Australia all have skill-based criteria for immigration, as opposed to the US's focus on family reunification. The UK also offers permanent residence to anyone who's been in the country for five years legally, even of you were just studying. Features like these are pretty appealing to hacker types.
- psranga 17y ago

17 points by iamelgringo 17y ago

This is exactly what I have in mind when I say that instead of a Startup Visa program I'd like to see a Visas For Sale program. It keeps everything on the up and up and reduces administration costs.

lutorm 17y ago
Um, would you mind explaining how this program would fill the need for a startup visa? I don't know how many people applying to the startup school have $500k -$1M to fork over before even starting to work on their startup, but I doubt it'll be a resounding success...
- patio11 17y ago
  The Startup Visa proposals seem to be "Let's anoint a group of VCs or angels with the ability to decide who gets to come to the US", which I think opens the possibility for ahem corruption and gives a governmental or semi-governmental group the authority to pick winners in the market. If you just sold visas, it would just be another capital-raising barrier to hop over. No nonsense about "Must create 10 jobs" or "Must win the favor of a particular bureaucrat", just "Convince someone -- anyone -- that you're a good enough risk to put #{PRICE_OF_VISA} on the line." You could also let the market price the visas for you if you want, via an auction mechanic or something similar.
- tptacek 17y ago
  None of the "startup visa" proposals give you a free visa just because you want to apply to startup school.
jacquesm 17y ago
I'd like to see borders disappear. I'd like to see visas disappear.
- catzaa 17y ago
  Be careful what you wish for. A world without borders might sound nice in a John Lennon song, but in practice it is not. The domino effect can happen – one state collapses and the people move to another state, which strains that state’s government and collapses that economy too. I live in South Africa, and we basically have an open border policy (since the laws do not get implemented). There are a lot of illegal immigrants which significantly increases crime, puts strain on services and creates social problems. We have a broad unemployment rate of 40% - we can’t even provide jobs for our own people, let alone 4+ million illegal immigrants.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    It's not a 'nice John Lennon song', it is really effectively the only way we will ever be able to make forward movements rather than two steps forward one step back. It's entirely for selfish reasons that I would like such a world to come about because it is the only future that I can envision where enough people will be pulling in the same direction to start solving the problems that we have. We are currently wasting roughly 60% of the worlds mental capacity, we can not afford to continue to live in such a wasteful way much longer. Pieces of paper to hold people out of places that they wish to go to ought to be a thing of the past. I've lived in poverty and I've been too rich for my comfort and pretty much all the stages in between, there is no way that 4 million illegal immigrants would converge on any place in the world because they would be bringing their homes with them, literally. What will happen is that just like with water vessels connected by a tube there will be a period of 'sloshing', overcompensating back and forth until some kind of equilibrium weighted by local conditions is arrived at. That probably won't be a pleasant thing for many of us, but the sooner we get it over with the better. The only people scared of that are those that are afraid to compete, and with the headstart that we've got competition should be the least of our worries. The alternatives are very much worse. As long as you are thinking in terms of 'our own people' you are completely missing my point, there is but one people.
    - catzaa 17y ago
      > able to make forward movements rather than two steps forward one step back. The result of such an approach would be a repeated one step back (as with the above process I described). > It's entirely for selfish reasons There is nothing wrong with rational self-interest. Whether you like it or not, you act in your own self-interest repeatedly. Nothing prevents you from moving to 3rd world countries (instead of moving a third world country to you). > Pieces of paper to hold people out of places that they wish to go to ought to be a thing of the past. Why? People only come into my home when I invite them inside. Why should it be different with countries? > there is no way that 4 million illegal immigrants would converge on any place in the world because they would be bringing their homes with them, literally. You would be surprised. > The only people scared of that are those that are afraid to compete, and with the headstart that we've got competition should be the least of our worries. Competition is the least of your problems. The first and biggest problem is crime – crime levels (including organised crime and violent crime) that increases extremely rapidly. The second problem is any public services that will simply get flooded – a good example in my country is health care. You will simply end up without access to decent health care. The third problem is private property. Immigrants will squat on your land depriving you of its use (without compensation). If you own land near the land where they squatted, it will be virtually worthless because of the associated theft and crime (see point one). And fourthly, if immigrants vote, they will most likely vote for a kleptocratic socialist-lair which will increase your taxes and thoroughly destroy what is left of the country.

faragon 17y ago

I'm a somewhat european computer scientist, and I would love to work for 2 or 3 years in the U.S. just for fun and getting a better english, but with such immigration laws I prefer to stay in Europe. By the way, you highly skilled americans are welcome to work and live here ;-)

rmanocha 17y ago
I don't know about highly skilled americans, but Europe's immigration policies seem to be no better for highly skilled asians. P.S. - I'm an Indian.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Exactly. And I'm ashamed of it more than I can express in a forum but there seem to be enough xenophobes here to ensure that's going to be the status quo for quite a while. Even within the EU there is plenty of that, witness the friction between western Europeans and immigrants from Poland or Romania. We have a long way to go in this respect.
- faragon 17y ago
  Highly skilled people should have little problems with visas, however, it depends on the country (Europe has heterogeneous immigration policies).
- catzaa 17y ago
  The UK has good laws (you can get a highly skilled Visa without major problems). Unfortunately some of the nicest countries it is difficult (e.g. Ireland).

tokenadult 17y ago

My usual question: what country in the world offers a better visa policy than the United States? A) In what country of the world could an American college graduate in a high-tech major field get off the plane and immediately start working with the prospect of long-term employment and permanent residence? B) In what country of the world could a college graduate from India or China in a high-tech major field get off the plane and immediately start working with the prospect of long-term employment and permanent residence? C) In what country of the world could a college graduate from an arbitrary country with an arbitrary college major get off the plane and immediately start working with the prospect of long-term employment and permanent residence? D) In what country of the world could a person from an arbitrary country with no schooling beyond compulsory instruction get off the plane and immediately start working with the prospect of long-term employment and permanent residence? E) More generally, which countries in the world enjoy net immigration rather than net emigration?

kmt 17y ago
Canada?
- tokenadult 17y ago
  Which questions above were you linking to Canada by your reply? I know for sure that Canada has a different immigration policy from the United States. Here I would be curious to know whether most hackers think that Canada's policies are easier on, harder on, or about the same as United States policies for would-be hacker immigrants.
  - petewarden 17y ago
    The UK, Canada and Australia all have skill-based criteria for immigration, as opposed to the US's focus on family reunification. The UK also offers permanent residence to anyone who's been in the country for five years legally, even of you were just studying. Features like these are pretty appealing to hacker types.
psranga 17y ago