4 ms·

You've got it totally wrong. I didn't say anything like this. In your example, you can turn to the government (or someone else) for help with your taxes. There

by shocks 11y ago

You've got it totally wrong. I didn't say anything like this. In your example, you can turn to the government (or someone else) for help with your taxes. There is no stigma (or law) that makes it difficult for you. That's not the case for a drug addict. It's a lot harder to get help. I also didn't say that addicts should not be held accountable for their actions. Of course they should. (...unless you're tring to evade tax...)

reddytowns 11y ago
If I make a mistake on my taxes, or lets say, park in the wrong place, I get fined. If someone does heroin and gets hooked, they get a treatment program. What is the difference? Why, according to you, should I be punished, while the person on heroin should get all these treatment options opened up to them? Where is my "parked my car in the wrong place" rehab program?
- darkr 11y ago
  > What is the difference? Both [legalisation/treatment-based approach to drug addition and fining drivers parking in the wrong place] are about reduction of harm on society and the individual, and effectiveness of that treatment. The driver addicted to "parking my car in the wrong place", is not potentially going to die if he suddenly can't park inconsiderately, so a gradual reduction strategy of "parking with just one wheel across the pavement", then progressing to "staying just a few minutes over the allotted parking time" is not required. The rehab program is the fine.
- deciplex 11y ago
  You'd have to fuck up pretty hard on your taxes to ruin your life the way being caught with certain drugs can do. I'm not sure any drug offense can compare to a parking ticket. Legalization itself is partly a moral issue, as the state doesn't really have any business telling me what to eat or smoke or inject, or for that matter what plants I grow on my property for personal use. Coupled with drug treatment programs it is also a practical issue: the cost of treating an addict is lower than the cost to the government of keeping him in the justice system for most of his life, lower than the cost to society of keeping him on the margins for most of his life. It's also cheaper solely from a health perspective. It's good policy because it saves money so you don't have to pay so much in taxes and parking tickets in the first place. So there's your answer: we don't have treatment programs for people who can't figure out where to park, or how to pay their taxes, because those are dumb ideas with low ROI.
- aianus 11y ago
  The fine isn't to punish you so much as to dissuade you from parking illegally. It's to steer you in the right direction. You won't lose your job, you won't lose your self esteem or right to travel, you'll just look for the sign next time. Giving an addict a criminal record and stuffing him in jail with violent criminals isn't going to steer him in the right direction at all. Rehab might. Plus, it's cheaper than jail anyways!
- shocks 11y ago
  Please stop saying I've said things that I haven't. We can't have a conversation if you do that. I didn't say you should be punished for doing your taxes badly. Your parking example is terrible. If you get a parking fine then you must have ignored a sign or not seen it. It's entirely possible there was no sign and you legitimately didn't realised you parked somewhere you shouldn't. There are appeals processes for exactly this. There are rules and regulation on conditions required to fine someone for parking. I don't understand how you can compare this to a drug problem. Someone should get help for a drug problem because it is exactly that - a problem they need help with.
  - reddytowns 11y ago
    It's hard to have a conversation if you just tap dance around all my points without addressing any of them. Again, why, according to you, are doing illegal drugs treated as a problem that people need to be helped with, yet other illegal behaviour is the responsibility of the individual? Or aren't you saying that, and in that case, what are you saying?

by shocks 11y ago

reddytowns 11y ago

If I make a mistake on my taxes, or lets say, park in the wrong place, I get fined. If someone does heroin and gets hooked, they get a treatment program. What is the difference? Why, according to you, should I be punished, while the person on heroin should get all these treatment options opened up to them? Where is my "parked my car in the wrong place" rehab program?

darkr 11y ago
> What is the difference? Both [legalisation/treatment-based approach to drug addition and fining drivers parking in the wrong place] are about reduction of harm on society and the individual, and effectiveness of that treatment. The driver addicted to "parking my car in the wrong place", is not potentially going to die if he suddenly can't park inconsiderately, so a gradual reduction strategy of "parking with just one wheel across the pavement", then progressing to "staying just a few minutes over the allotted parking time" is not required. The rehab program is the fine.
deciplex 11y ago
You'd have to fuck up pretty hard on your taxes to ruin your life the way being caught with certain drugs can do. I'm not sure any drug offense can compare to a parking ticket. Legalization itself is partly a moral issue, as the state doesn't really have any business telling me what to eat or smoke or inject, or for that matter what plants I grow on my property for personal use. Coupled with drug treatment programs it is also a practical issue: the cost of treating an addict is lower than the cost to the government of keeping him in the justice system for most of his life, lower than the cost to society of keeping him on the margins for most of his life. It's also cheaper solely from a health perspective. It's good policy because it saves money so you don't have to pay so much in taxes and parking tickets in the first place. So there's your answer: we don't have treatment programs for people who can't figure out where to park, or how to pay their taxes, because those are dumb ideas with low ROI.
aianus 11y ago
The fine isn't to punish you so much as to dissuade you from parking illegally. It's to steer you in the right direction. You won't lose your job, you won't lose your self esteem or right to travel, you'll just look for the sign next time. Giving an addict a criminal record and stuffing him in jail with violent criminals isn't going to steer him in the right direction at all. Rehab might. Plus, it's cheaper than jail anyways!
shocks 11y ago
Please stop saying I've said things that I haven't. We can't have a conversation if you do that. I didn't say you should be punished for doing your taxes badly. Your parking example is terrible. If you get a parking fine then you must have ignored a sign or not seen it. It's entirely possible there was no sign and you legitimately didn't realised you parked somewhere you shouldn't. There are appeals processes for exactly this. There are rules and regulation on conditions required to fine someone for parking. I don't understand how you can compare this to a drug problem. Someone should get help for a drug problem because it is exactly that - a problem they need help with.
- reddytowns 11y ago
  It's hard to have a conversation if you just tap dance around all my points without addressing any of them. Again, why, according to you, are doing illegal drugs treated as a problem that people need to be helped with, yet other illegal behaviour is the responsibility of the individual? Or aren't you saying that, and in that case, what are you saying?