4 ms·

I'm in the lucky position to have access to most publications legally. But I cannot imagine what to do if our library wouldn't have subscriptions. The prices mo

I'm in the lucky position to have access to most publications legally. But I cannot imagine what to do if our library wouldn't have subscriptions. The prices most publishers are demanding are insanely high and simply not financable if you need just a dozen papers or so. Especially considering that the research and the the writing is done by scientists, the review is done by other scientists. For free. The writers even pay a lot of money to get published. So I wonder what justifies these price tags for offering a PDF for download. Don't get me wrong - I can still see the role of a publisher in the scientific world. But perhaps the monetarization should be overworked... As the article said: let's see how this whole publishing world will change. Open Access and comparable models are becoming more and more popular.

masklinn 11y ago
> I'm in the lucky position to have access to most publications legally. But I cannot imagine what to do if our library wouldn't have subscriptions. The prices most publishers are demanding are insanely high and simply not financable if you need just a dozen papers or so. Obtaining foundational CS papers for intellectual curiosity reasons is pretty bad, they cost inane prices[0] and for that you get barely legible PDF scans of the original print. In the best case there might be some badly synchronised ORC included so you can try to select way too much text and hope you'll find what you wanted somewhere in your clipboard. [0] ACM wants $30 for the 1965 "A correspondence between ALGOL 60 and Church's Lambda-notations" (two parts, $15 each, ~20 pages total)
- Kristine1975 11y ago
  FWIW, googling for your example paper has a link to a scanned PDF of part 1 as first result: http://fi.ort.edu.uy/innovaportal/file/20124/1/22-landin_correspondence-between-algol-60-and-churchs-lambda-notation.pdf http://fi.ort.edu.uy/innovaportal/file/20124/1/22-landin_cor... Part 2 is at http://www.vex.net/~trebla/tmp/p158-landin.pdf http://www.vex.net/~trebla/tmp/p158-landin.pdf Both are quite legible. Google Scholar is also great for finding PDFs of papers.
  - masklinn 11y ago
    Oh yes I know about the "haz PDF" option, I was talking about the "legitimate" one (best case scenario under the UCC copyright is life + 25, we lost Peter Landin in 2009, so there's absolutely no chance this stuff is in the public domain)
- dalke 11y ago
  There's a cheaper solution for foundational papers. Go to your library and use interlibrary loan. Some libraries also have copying services. I've been trying track down a paper for the Tanimoto similarity. Quoting Wikipedia, "many sources[3] cite an unavailable IBM Technical Report[4] as the seminal reference", where [4] is: Tanimoto, T. (17 Nov 1957). "An Elementary Mathematical theory of Classification and Prediction". Internal IBM Technical Report 1957 (8?). Worldcat says that 10 page report is on a few library shelves. One of them provides scanning services, for about 50 cents per page, and $7 minimum. I should get it in the mail soon. If the same fees were to apply to your ACM articles, it would cost about $10(!). That cost difference makes me mad.
  - Natsu 11y ago
    Hopefully the next person after you won't have to search as hard for it, though...
    - dalke 11y ago
      They won't. The next person will easily find it in WorldCat. When I started looking, WorldCat didn't have the record.
  - masklinn 11y ago
    > There's a cheaper solution for foundational papers. Go to your library and use interlibrary loan. Not sure that's really an option when not in the US.
    - kragen 11y ago
      I think people in the US don't realize how much better the US library system is than most of the rest of the world. Even the developed world!
      - dalke 11y ago
        Could you elaborate? I haven't seen any differences in the Swedish library system compared to the US one, and my experiences with the German libraries have also been good.
esseti 11y ago
And the things is (at least where i leave) that Uni pays the fees for the access. The money for the fees come from the govern (and EU). The same govern that also finances the research. Basically the govern pays twice (if not more) the same thing.
Asbostos 11y ago
Prices for anything don't have to be justified. The market decides them. It turns out that people really want to pay those publishers, so they can charge high fees. It also turns out scientists really want to publish their work in those closed-access journals. Whatever attracts them to do that is what justifies the high prices. What attracts them? Universities use them as a proxy to judge job applicants. Blame universities for using such an expensive "interview" process that permanently shafts much of the worlds scientific knowledge as a side effect.
- Brotkrumen 11y ago
  Ah, I cant criticise a marketstructure that is coinincidental for flaws because there are prices. I should criticise one market participant over another due to reasons. Got it. Scientific journals used to haven an important role in distributing and coordinating scientific work. A large part of that reason is gone in the age of near instantaneous and free distribution. The coordination of the process could be done cheaply and pay for a bunch more PhDs instead of a useless middleman.
- wolfgke 11y ago
  > Prices for anything don't have to be justified. The market decides them. It turns out that people really want to pay those publishers, so they can charge high fees. The market price is - say 30 $, if you want to get a legal copy - about 0 $, if you can accept the moral and legal dilemma Let the market decide... --- Seriously, because of the copyright laws the market is strongly skewed. I really can't understand how one can believe in free markets and copyright at the same time.
- arbitrage 11y ago
  The market is being unfairly controlled by oligopolists, if not straight out monopolists in many areas. This is not free market doctrine. This is econ 101 on how to subvert the free market.
  - refurb 11y ago
    How is it a monopoly situation? There are multiple journals out there where scientists can publish their work. They could also start their own journal (open-access if they like) without many barriers.

masklinn 11y ago

> I'm in the lucky position to have access to most publications legally. But I cannot imagine what to do if our library wouldn't have subscriptions. The prices most publishers are demanding are insanely high and simply not financable if you need just a dozen papers or so. Obtaining foundational CS papers for intellectual curiosity reasons is pretty bad, they cost inane prices[0] and for that you get barely legible PDF scans of the original print. In the best case there might be some badly synchronised ORC included so you can try to select way too much text and hope you'll find what you wanted somewhere in your clipboard. [0] ACM wants $30 for the 1965 "A correspondence between ALGOL 60 and Church's Lambda-notations" (two parts, $15 each, ~20 pages total)

Kristine1975 11y ago
FWIW, googling for your example paper has a link to a scanned PDF of part 1 as first result: http://fi.ort.edu.uy/innovaportal/file/20124/1/22-landin_correspondence-between-algol-60-and-churchs-lambda-notation.pdf http://fi.ort.edu.uy/innovaportal/file/20124/1/22-landin_cor... Part 2 is at http://www.vex.net/~trebla/tmp/p158-landin.pdf http://www.vex.net/~trebla/tmp/p158-landin.pdf Both are quite legible. Google Scholar is also great for finding PDFs of papers.
- masklinn 11y ago
  Oh yes I know about the "haz PDF" option, I was talking about the "legitimate" one (best case scenario under the UCC copyright is life + 25, we lost Peter Landin in 2009, so there's absolutely no chance this stuff is in the public domain)
dalke 11y ago
There's a cheaper solution for foundational papers. Go to your library and use interlibrary loan. Some libraries also have copying services. I've been trying track down a paper for the Tanimoto similarity. Quoting Wikipedia, "many sources[3] cite an unavailable IBM Technical Report[4] as the seminal reference", where [4] is: Tanimoto, T. (17 Nov 1957). "An Elementary Mathematical theory of Classification and Prediction". Internal IBM Technical Report 1957 (8?). Worldcat says that 10 page report is on a few library shelves. One of them provides scanning services, for about 50 cents per page, and $7 minimum. I should get it in the mail soon. If the same fees were to apply to your ACM articles, it would cost about $10(!). That cost difference makes me mad.
- Natsu 11y ago
  Hopefully the next person after you won't have to search as hard for it, though...
  - dalke 11y ago
    They won't. The next person will easily find it in WorldCat. When I started looking, WorldCat didn't have the record.
- masklinn 11y ago
  > There's a cheaper solution for foundational papers. Go to your library and use interlibrary loan. Not sure that's really an option when not in the US.
  - kragen 11y ago
    I think people in the US don't realize how much better the US library system is than most of the rest of the world. Even the developed world!
    - dalke 11y ago
      Could you elaborate? I haven't seen any differences in the Swedish library system compared to the US one, and my experiences with the German libraries have also been good.

esseti 11y ago

And the things is (at least where i leave) that Uni pays the fees for the access. The money for the fees come from the govern (and EU). The same govern that also finances the research. Basically the govern pays twice (if not more) the same thing.

Asbostos 11y ago

Prices for anything don't have to be justified. The market decides them. It turns out that people really want to pay those publishers, so they can charge high fees. It also turns out scientists really want to publish their work in those closed-access journals. Whatever attracts them to do that is what justifies the high prices. What attracts them? Universities use them as a proxy to judge job applicants. Blame universities for using such an expensive "interview" process that permanently shafts much of the worlds scientific knowledge as a side effect.

Brotkrumen 11y ago
Ah, I cant criticise a marketstructure that is coinincidental for flaws because there are prices. I should criticise one market participant over another due to reasons. Got it. Scientific journals used to haven an important role in distributing and coordinating scientific work. A large part of that reason is gone in the age of near instantaneous and free distribution. The coordination of the process could be done cheaply and pay for a bunch more PhDs instead of a useless middleman.
wolfgke 11y ago
> Prices for anything don't have to be justified. The market decides them. It turns out that people really want to pay those publishers, so they can charge high fees. The market price is - say 30 $, if you want to get a legal copy - about 0 $, if you can accept the moral and legal dilemma Let the market decide... --- Seriously, because of the copyright laws the market is strongly skewed. I really can't understand how one can believe in free markets and copyright at the same time.
arbitrage 11y ago
The market is being unfairly controlled by oligopolists, if not straight out monopolists in many areas. This is not free market doctrine. This is econ 101 on how to subvert the free market.
- refurb 11y ago
  How is it a monopoly situation? There are multiple journals out there where scientists can publish their work. They could also start their own journal (open-access if they like) without many barriers.