10 ms·

> users supported This is the biggest thing, IMO. Legalising drugs isn't about getting control of distrubution and profits, it's more about changing societies

by shocks 11y ago

> users supported This is the biggest thing, IMO. Legalising drugs isn't about getting control of distrubution and profits, it's more about changing societies view on drugs. We need to stop treating these people as addicts that need to be swept under the rug. We need to treat them as they are - human beings with a disease/illness for which they need help. How can they turn to us for help if we chuck them in prison for their problem and don't help them? edit; wasn't suggesting that you didn't think this - I think the majority of people in my country (UK) don't think of addiction as an illness/disease that we need to help with. They just want to turn a blind eye...

awjr 11y ago
This is a very valid point. I don't see the UK government however changing their approach. Treating addiction as a disease just enables the government to vilify users. Many low-level heroin/cocaine users just lead normal lives. As do many low-level wine users. The only way I see this changing is when it financially makes sense. Taking Colorado as a model, the UK could get in the region of £400million a year in tax benefits from the legalisation of cannabis alone. Drug related crime is estimated to cost the country £14 billion annually.
- shocks 11y ago
  Thanks. Do you know where I can find some numbers on this? It's something I've always wondered. We're told by the media that 90% of heroin addicts are on the street stealing to maintain their habit - but I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of heroin addicts appear to have these "normal" lives.
  - user_0001 11y ago
    Depends how you define "addict". As any heroin user? Someone whose whole life is based around the drug? Something else?
  - DanBC 11y ago
    There are two sources of information in UK. Office for national statistics are nice. They're robust about what does or doesn't count, and how they count, and where you need to be cautious with the numbers. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ http://www.ons.gov.uk/ The other place might be Public Health Outcomes: http://www.phoutcomes.info/ http://www.phoutcomes.info/ EG http://fingertips.phe.org.uk/profile-group/mental-health http://fingertips.phe.org.uk/profile-group/mental-health And finally NICE tend to have excellent referencing. Noodle around here to find the NICE guidance. http://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/drug-misuse http://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/drug-misuse
- bluedino 11y ago
  >> Many low-level heroin/cocaine users just lead normal lives. As do many low-level wine users. This is a pretty ridiculous comparison
  - code_sterling 11y ago
    Hardly, just because alcohol is socially accepted doesn't mean it's not a drug. Alcohol and heroine are considered the most harmful drugs out there. It's an apt comparison.
  - ex_ex_nihilo 11y ago
    It's only ridiculous if you don't think about it.
reddytowns 11y ago
Why is it that having certain problems gives you a license to demand that everyone else help you with them? We've all got problems, but for some reason whenever I mess up on my taxes or something, I'm to blame, but if someone else robs a liquor store when being addicted to heroin, "the needle made me do it, mumble ... mumble ..." is an acceptable excuse.
- lm______ 11y ago
  No one said that robbers should be punished less harshly if they have an addiction.
- snsr 11y ago
  > is an acceptable excuse No, it's not. Going with your flawed example: having an addiction to heroin should be a socially acceptable problem, or at least one that doesn't land an addict in prison in and of itself. Helping those amongst us who are addicted helps to prevent desperate crimes.
  - soylentcola 11y ago
    Exactly. To put it in terms of currently legal drugs, it's not illegal to be an alcoholic. You won't be imprisoned for the compulsive use of alcohol, regardless of the framework used to describe it (poor impulse control, chemical imbalance, whatever). But if you go beat someone up or crash your car while drunk, you're charged with those crimes, whether committed due to your addiction or not. But outside of actual crimes committed against others in society, just being in possession of alcohol or being an addict isn't illegal. Additionally, there are resources for people who want to improve their dealings with alcohol or work out the issues that are causing their problems with it. They can make use of these resources without fear of being arrested because mere possession and use isn't a crime. I don't claim that habitual use of opiates or amphetamines or whatever is a positive thing but putting someone at risk of criminal penalties and prison because of something that is (at worst) very unhealthy is sort of preposterous when you think about it that way. That doesn't mean we ought to turn a blind eye to crimes committed under the influence or in search of one's dose but at a minimum, possession and use ought not to be criminal offenses.
inDigiNeous 11y ago
Exactly. Many of the medicine that we label illegal, is from the nature, like cannabis. For that purpose also, we should regulate them, so that people would have better and more controlled access, and not have to figure out healing themselves and caught addicted because they have no legal way to get help. Reality is there are many people who do not trust the medical companies and their "medicine", and are looking for alternative, natural remedies. Misuse is also a big problem, because when there is no legal source, there is no way to assure what you are getting is good, aside from experimenting and finding people who know their shit on this subject, and it can be difficult to look beyond the stigma of society. This is very much a problem in countries where cannabis is illegal. People buy too much, use too much, because they have no idea or control when they are going to access more. Been through that process. Nobody is denying cannabis is not addictive, it is, very. But putting it in the hands of people who know what it does, how it does and in what amounts you should use it, this will help people who have no idea to control their medicinal use better. Of course there is recreational use, abusive use, but this is also partly because we have no real discussion going on in the public about this. Why? Because it's illegal to discuss even, and can immediately label you as a "drug user". Same goes for different medicine from the nature also, mushrooms, ayahuasca, iboga and so on. If these were understood, studied and regulated, we would have real medicine to heal people with, not just things created by humans which are produced just to keep people addicted and hooked on the bill of medical cost. Many medical companies know exactly this, and this why I feel many laws are kept in place to prevent natural use, it's just to protect the immoral practice of selling sickness to people. Just make everything legal already, and have people who have experience working with these medicines act as healers in the process. This is already happening also, but it is not discussed on a public level, as it is illegal and can cause stigma and fear, but I hope more and more people will do it so we can have a real alternative to the current system again in place.
- durzagott 11y ago
  "Nobody is denying cannabis is not addictive, it is, very" Can I get a source on that? It flies in the face of conventional wisdom.
  - 11y ago
pjc50 11y ago
I'd argue that, especially given the social history of how the prohibitions came to be, that it's the other way round: condemning 'vice' starts out as a pretext for social exclusion and blaming the poor for their condition. We don't want to help so we set up a situation where we don't have to. Nobody suggests testing the financial services industry for performance-enhancing drugs, for example.
TeMPOraL 11y ago
Yvain's classic on disease/failure of personality is worth bringing up[0]. Also, his more recent take on (US) attitude towards treating heroin addicts[1]. The ending paragraph of [1] works as a great TL;DR: "Society is fixed, biology is mutable. People have tried everything to fix drug abuse. Being harsh and sending drug users to jail. Being nice and sending them to nice treatment centers that focus on rehabilitation. Old timey religion where fire-and-brimstone preachers talk about how Jesus wants them to stay off drugs. Flaky New Age religion where counselors tell you about how drug abuse is keeping you from your true self. Government programs. University programs. Private programs. Giving people money. Fining people money. Being unusually nice. Being unusually mean. More social support. Less social support. This school of therapy. That school of therapy. What works is just giving people a chemical to saturate the brain receptor directly. We know it works. The studies show it works. And we’re still collectively beating our heads against the wall of finding a social solution." [0] - http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_questions_about/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_que... [1] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/02/practically-a-book-review-dying-to-be-free/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/02/practically-a-book-revi...
- jacquesm 11y ago
  "Experiments have shown rats to forgo food to the point of starvation in order to work for brain stimulation or intravenous cocaine when both food and stimulation are offered concurrently for a limited time each day." From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward
  - omurphyevans 11y ago
    When given positive other life experiences, rats do not prefer cocaine to food. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    The quote I cited was about heroin in particular; I don't know the state of anti-cocaine methods and the article doesn't go into it. It only states that apparently we have a perfectly good method of curing heroin addiction that's not being used for pretty stupid reasons.

by shocks 11y ago

awjr 11y ago

This is a very valid point. I don't see the UK government however changing their approach. Treating addiction as a disease just enables the government to vilify users. Many low-level heroin/cocaine users just lead normal lives. As do many low-level wine users. The only way I see this changing is when it financially makes sense. Taking Colorado as a model, the UK could get in the region of £400million a year in tax benefits from the legalisation of cannabis alone. Drug related crime is estimated to cost the country £14 billion annually.

shocks 11y ago
Thanks. Do you know where I can find some numbers on this? It's something I've always wondered. We're told by the media that 90% of heroin addicts are on the street stealing to maintain their habit - but I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of heroin addicts appear to have these "normal" lives.
- user_0001 11y ago
  Depends how you define "addict". As any heroin user? Someone whose whole life is based around the drug? Something else?
- DanBC 11y ago
  There are two sources of information in UK. Office for national statistics are nice. They're robust about what does or doesn't count, and how they count, and where you need to be cautious with the numbers. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ http://www.ons.gov.uk/ The other place might be Public Health Outcomes: http://www.phoutcomes.info/ http://www.phoutcomes.info/ EG http://fingertips.phe.org.uk/profile-group/mental-health http://fingertips.phe.org.uk/profile-group/mental-health And finally NICE tend to have excellent referencing. Noodle around here to find the NICE guidance. http://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/drug-misuse http://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/drug-misuse
bluedino 11y ago
>> Many low-level heroin/cocaine users just lead normal lives. As do many low-level wine users. This is a pretty ridiculous comparison
- code_sterling 11y ago
  Hardly, just because alcohol is socially accepted doesn't mean it's not a drug. Alcohol and heroine are considered the most harmful drugs out there. It's an apt comparison.
- ex_ex_nihilo 11y ago
  It's only ridiculous if you don't think about it.

reddytowns 11y ago

Why is it that having certain problems gives you a license to demand that everyone else help you with them? We've all got problems, but for some reason whenever I mess up on my taxes or something, I'm to blame, but if someone else robs a liquor store when being addicted to heroin, "the needle made me do it, mumble ... mumble ..." is an acceptable excuse.

lm______ 11y ago
No one said that robbers should be punished less harshly if they have an addiction.
snsr 11y ago
> is an acceptable excuse No, it's not. Going with your flawed example: having an addiction to heroin should be a socially acceptable problem, or at least one that doesn't land an addict in prison in and of itself. Helping those amongst us who are addicted helps to prevent desperate crimes.
- soylentcola 11y ago
  Exactly. To put it in terms of currently legal drugs, it's not illegal to be an alcoholic. You won't be imprisoned for the compulsive use of alcohol, regardless of the framework used to describe it (poor impulse control, chemical imbalance, whatever). But if you go beat someone up or crash your car while drunk, you're charged with those crimes, whether committed due to your addiction or not. But outside of actual crimes committed against others in society, just being in possession of alcohol or being an addict isn't illegal. Additionally, there are resources for people who want to improve their dealings with alcohol or work out the issues that are causing their problems with it. They can make use of these resources without fear of being arrested because mere possession and use isn't a crime. I don't claim that habitual use of opiates or amphetamines or whatever is a positive thing but putting someone at risk of criminal penalties and prison because of something that is (at worst) very unhealthy is sort of preposterous when you think about it that way. That doesn't mean we ought to turn a blind eye to crimes committed under the influence or in search of one's dose but at a minimum, possession and use ought not to be criminal offenses.

inDigiNeous 11y ago

Exactly. Many of the medicine that we label illegal, is from the nature, like cannabis. For that purpose also, we should regulate them, so that people would have better and more controlled access, and not have to figure out healing themselves and caught addicted because they have no legal way to get help. Reality is there are many people who do not trust the medical companies and their "medicine", and are looking for alternative, natural remedies. Misuse is also a big problem, because when there is no legal source, there is no way to assure what you are getting is good, aside from experimenting and finding people who know their shit on this subject, and it can be difficult to look beyond the stigma of society. This is very much a problem in countries where cannabis is illegal. People buy too much, use too much, because they have no idea or control when they are going to access more. Been through that process. Nobody is denying cannabis is not addictive, it is, very. But putting it in the hands of people who know what it does, how it does and in what amounts you should use it, this will help people who have no idea to control their medicinal use better. Of course there is recreational use, abusive use, but this is also partly because we have no real discussion going on in the public about this. Why? Because it's illegal to discuss even, and can immediately label you as a "drug user". Same goes for different medicine from the nature also, mushrooms, ayahuasca, iboga and so on. If these were understood, studied and regulated, we would have real medicine to heal people with, not just things created by humans which are produced just to keep people addicted and hooked on the bill of medical cost. Many medical companies know exactly this, and this why I feel many laws are kept in place to prevent natural use, it's just to protect the immoral practice of selling sickness to people. Just make everything legal already, and have people who have experience working with these medicines act as healers in the process. This is already happening also, but it is not discussed on a public level, as it is illegal and can cause stigma and fear, but I hope more and more people will do it so we can have a real alternative to the current system again in place.

durzagott 11y ago
"Nobody is denying cannabis is not addictive, it is, very" Can I get a source on that? It flies in the face of conventional wisdom.
- 11y ago

pjc50 11y ago

I'd argue that, especially given the social history of how the prohibitions came to be, that it's the other way round: condemning 'vice' starts out as a pretext for social exclusion and blaming the poor for their condition. We don't want to help so we set up a situation where we don't have to. Nobody suggests testing the financial services industry for performance-enhancing drugs, for example.

TeMPOraL 11y ago

Yvain's classic on disease/failure of personality is worth bringing up[0]. Also, his more recent take on (US) attitude towards treating heroin addicts[1]. The ending paragraph of [1] works as a great TL;DR: "Society is fixed, biology is mutable. People have tried everything to fix drug abuse. Being harsh and sending drug users to jail. Being nice and sending them to nice treatment centers that focus on rehabilitation. Old timey religion where fire-and-brimstone preachers talk about how Jesus wants them to stay off drugs. Flaky New Age religion where counselors tell you about how drug abuse is keeping you from your true self. Government programs. University programs. Private programs. Giving people money. Fining people money. Being unusually nice. Being unusually mean. More social support. Less social support. This school of therapy. That school of therapy. What works is just giving people a chemical to saturate the brain receptor directly. We know it works. The studies show it works. And we’re still collectively beating our heads against the wall of finding a social solution." [0] - http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_questions_about/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_que... [1] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/02/practically-a-book-review-dying-to-be-free/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/02/practically-a-book-revi...

jacquesm 11y ago
"Experiments have shown rats to forgo food to the point of starvation in order to work for brain stimulation or intravenous cocaine when both food and stimulation are offered concurrently for a limited time each day." From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward
- omurphyevans 11y ago
  When given positive other life experiences, rats do not prefer cocaine to food. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  The quote I cited was about heroin in particular; I don't know the state of anti-cocaine methods and the article doesn't go into it. It only states that apparently we have a perfectly good method of curing heroin addiction that's not being used for pretty stupid reasons.