5 ms·

Sabotage

165 points by sgentle 11y ago

andrew-lucker 11y ago
Not related to overwork or sabotage, but the "talk it down" is expected in certain cultures and has a name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deprecation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deprecation
- tajen 11y ago
  In my city (Lyon, France) we look down at the rich people. So much that every time I go to a start-up pitch session, I hear words like "My goal is NOT to enrich myself, it's to serve the community" and the people make choices accordingly, such as belonging to a cooperative and not earning dividends, etc. It seems like an obligatory language to gain the support of the society in order to do our business. A striking example: my coworking space is awesome and the founders don't get dividends for it, apart from having a free office.
- ATsch 11y ago
  Also relevant and often related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-handicapping https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-handicapping
TeMPOraL 11y ago
+5 Insightful. I know I personally like to keep the opinion people have that I am overworked, whether I actually work hard or procrastinate - it's just a really convenient social shield, not only against failure but also against random requests from people. When people notice you have too much free time, for some reason they feel obliged to start inventing things for you to do. I think it's an alternative to just saying "no". Some people are assertive and can simply refuse a request. Personally, I find assertiveness very cognitively taxing, not to mention socially, so maintaining a bubble of "he's constantly working on something" impression helps. It's probably not the most ethical approach, but it's a coping strategy. As for self-deprecation of your work, I know I've been guilty of this at times to cover for stress and lack of motivation. It would be true that the particular piece of work is not the best thing I can do (and I can always point to examples of a better work), but fortunately people immediately assume (without me having to suggest anything) that's because of being tired, or new, or something, and not because I am having trouble finding the motivation to pursue a task at 100% of effectiveness. This buys me necessary time to sort my motivations out and hopefully regain the energy to do a better work next time.
- tabio 11y ago
  That sets an unhealthy social norm for the people who look up to you -- that the only acceptable state is unhappiness.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    I drop some shields down for people close to me. But then again, I used to be so bad at assertiveness that I've been burned by people very close to me who assumed my time is free and can be wasted on anything at all.
    - jtheory 11y ago
      I see people all the time quite convincingly saying (with a friendly, disarming smile) "oh no, it's no problem at all!" when in fact it is a problem, they don't want to do whatever it is, internally they're distressed. But social conventions (of varying power depending on the culture they grew up in) are forcing them to say "yes", and do it convincingly. It's actually easier if someone demands a favor and they are obviously rude/inconsiderate about it; it's more "okay" to respond to rudeness with a refusal or excuse. But some people are unable to say "no" to polite requests for assistance even when they have to lie to accept convincingly. Even if it's hugely inconvenient for them, and only of minimal benefit to the asker. So they say "yes", and probably do whatever it is, and then will try to find a way to avoid the asker in future (don't pick up their calls, etc). There's some argument that everyone would benefit from a more "American" (ideal, not always real) and more direct approach -- e.g., someone asks "would it be easy for you to..." and you answer "sorry, no", and no one is upset. But this is next to impossible in some cultures, and there's also value in (if you're the asker) putting more thought into how you can value other peoples' time more accurately.
- franciscop 11y ago
  You just oppened my eyes. Being a programmer from Spain I receive an average of 2-3 project proposals for free from friends and acquaintances per week. To friends I normally explain why not, but to acquaintances it's way easier to say I don't have time than to explain why I don't think it's a good idea or that I just don't want to work for them for free, which is expected for side projects or internships in here. Now I'm also experimenting with asking for how much when it's work-like and some people just back off. Then from time to time an awesome project with shared workloads comes and I magically find the time to do it (;
derefr 11y ago
More commonly known, in competitive rather than cooperative endeavor, as the scrub mentality. From http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/more-on-losing http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/more-on-losing: > The loser usually takes the imagined moral high ground by sticking to his Code of Honor, a made-up set of personal rules that tells him which moves he can and cannot do. Of course, the rules of the game itself dictate which moves a player can and cannot make, so the Code of Honor is superfluous and counterproductive toward winning. [...] This type of player is trying desperately to remain a “winner” any way possible. If you catch him amidst a sea of losses, you’ll notice that his Code will undergo strange contortions so that he may still define himself, somehow, as a “winner.” Working long hours, showing people unfinished prototypes, etc. are such "Codes of Honor." For the people who work under such rules, even if their output stinks, they can still feel like keeping to their Code has made them a "winner." Even if, y'know, the ROI on their time and effort was effectively zero.
- placeybordeaux 11y ago
  This is one of the many things that starcraft taught me. If my goal is to be better, there is little point in placing blame on anything except what is under my control. If the opponent uses a strategy that seems unfair, then I should use that strategy. If they are using a high risk strategy, instead of saying that they are just gambling and being mad at them I should instead become better at finding out if they are going to take that path and deal with it. When it comes to improvement it is self defeating to say that anything out of your control was the problem. If that was in fact the case you shouldn't have let that situtation arise. If someone else is constantly causing a problem for you then you need to create a situation where they can't cause you problems anymore. Be that improve their abilities, isolate yourself from them or be good enough to solve that problem. Then again I never quite made it to the grandmasters league.
- seivan 11y ago
  You and Sam pretty much shredded 'a friend' in words... harsh but accurate. 'Friend' has to reflect on this now.
- d0mine 11y ago
  Would you torture and rape to win? If not, why?
chris_wot 11y ago
I'm a bit confused... Is he saying overwork is good to shield you from over expectations and mistakes?
- skrebbel 11y ago
  Yes. And then he says that if we could come up with better shields than that, then maybe we could overwork less.
skrebbel 11y ago
As a European, this article intrigues me. In most European industries, overwork isn't at all celebrated as much as in the US (from what I can tell reading HN). But this article's reasoning makes sense. So do we have different social shields in place? If I work 8-ish hours a day and screw up, what's my excuse? I can't completely figure this one out.
- capisce 11y ago
  Maybe it's less of a problem in Europe as American work culture is more demanding and stressful: http://lifehacker.com/5751875/five-traits-low-stress-happy-work-cultures-have-in-common http://lifehacker.com/5751875/five-traits-low-stress-happy-w... And everyone screws up from time to time, organizations should understand that too much fear of breaking things is not a good thing: http://engineering.teacherspayteachers.com/2015/10/11/the-fear-of-breaking-things.html http://engineering.teacherspayteachers.com/2015/10/11/the-fe... Instead of focusing on blame they should focus on processes to avoid the screw-up from happening again.
- Cthulhu_ 11y ago
  I can see mentalities like this - less strict working hours, work related communication continuing after work hours, etc - creeping up rapidly in Europe / my world though. I have some colleagues that go home mid-afternoon (to pick up the kids from work), but then work for a couple hours more in the evening. That makes it appear to me (and, more importantly, my boss) that they work longer hours, which causes some performance anxiety. Me, I prefer to work 9-5. It's boring, but it's sustainable and does not cause me stress about whether I'm working the 40 hours / week my contract tells me to do.
- fasteo 11y ago
  My bet is that you are from northern Europe. Overwork is highly celebrated in the Mediterranean coast. Speaking from Spain.
  - skrebbel 11y ago
    True! And indeed, did not know that.
binaryapparatus 11y ago
Excellent article. I have always been fascinated with how conscious / subconscious brain works and deeper I dig stranger things are there to observe. Almost all that appears on the surface is not what it seems after analysis. We are all actors, whether willing to admit or not. "You are not really John" http://www.wimp.com/goodactor/ http://www.wimp.com/goodactor/
imrehg 11y ago
Oh, on my work computer WinXP + Chrome I end up with a "This webpage is not available ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH" (though looking at the ssltest result, I should tell this to Cloudflare)
kazagistar 11y ago
I don't feel like I have this motivation, but I also cannot identify a rational reason for still being up at 4:40 am.
TurboHaskal 11y ago
Posted at 2:00 AM.
- stronglikedan 11y ago
  > Posted 10/17/2015, 8:00:00 PM Likely adjusted for timezone. EST here.
ommunist 11y ago
Actually, author's observation is bullseye. Self-sabotage to lower bosses' expectation is the reason of the crappy look of the modern Internet visual environment, and who knows for how much of its guts.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  This seems to be corollary of the old adage: "the better you get, the better you'd better get".
SZJX 11y ago
That's a very peculiar perspective to say the least. However I don't think it makes much sense TBH. Nobody would lower his/her expectation of the work just because that guy said he worked so hard and didn't even sleep much in the past several months. On the contrary, the more likely thought is that "you've worked so hard and sacrificed a lot already, then the work you've done must be awesome, otherwise you're really even more of a fail." If the guy said that he just did a random side project for 1 hour per day, then the expectation would indeed be much lower. So I can't see myself agreeing with the author's line of reasoning. Pointing out that people sometimes would like "freedom to fail" for more personal projects is a good point, and a wish to lower expectations of others is indeed commonly seen in many occasions (reasonable/moderate or not), but this attribution of reason seems quite arbitrary. In any case, overworking and sleep deprivation are definitely bad. No matter what the reason behind them and what actions to be taken, they should not be an acceptable norm for any sane person. That's for sure.

165 points by sgentle 11y ago

Not related to overwork or sabotage, but the "talk it down" is expected in certain cultures and has a name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deprecation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deprecation

tajen 11y ago
In my city (Lyon, France) we look down at the rich people. So much that every time I go to a start-up pitch session, I hear words like "My goal is NOT to enrich myself, it's to serve the community" and the people make choices accordingly, such as belonging to a cooperative and not earning dividends, etc. It seems like an obligatory language to gain the support of the society in order to do our business. A striking example: my coworking space is awesome and the founders don't get dividends for it, apart from having a free office.
ATsch 11y ago
Also relevant and often related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-handicapping https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-handicapping

TeMPOraL 11y ago

+5 Insightful. I know I personally like to keep the opinion people have that I am overworked, whether I actually work hard or procrastinate - it's just a really convenient social shield, not only against failure but also against random requests from people. When people notice you have too much free time, for some reason they feel obliged to start inventing things for you to do. I think it's an alternative to just saying "no". Some people are assertive and can simply refuse a request. Personally, I find assertiveness very cognitively taxing, not to mention socially, so maintaining a bubble of "he's constantly working on something" impression helps. It's probably not the most ethical approach, but it's a coping strategy. As for self-deprecation of your work, I know I've been guilty of this at times to cover for stress and lack of motivation. It would be true that the particular piece of work is not the best thing I can do (and I can always point to examples of a better work), but fortunately people immediately assume (without me having to suggest anything) that's because of being tired, or new, or something, and not because I am having trouble finding the motivation to pursue a task at 100% of effectiveness. This buys me necessary time to sort my motivations out and hopefully regain the energy to do a better work next time.

tabio 11y ago
That sets an unhealthy social norm for the people who look up to you -- that the only acceptable state is unhappiness.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  I drop some shields down for people close to me. But then again, I used to be so bad at assertiveness that I've been burned by people very close to me who assumed my time is free and can be wasted on anything at all.
  - jtheory 11y ago
    I see people all the time quite convincingly saying (with a friendly, disarming smile) "oh no, it's no problem at all!" when in fact it is a problem, they don't want to do whatever it is, internally they're distressed. But social conventions (of varying power depending on the culture they grew up in) are forcing them to say "yes", and do it convincingly. It's actually easier if someone demands a favor and they are obviously rude/inconsiderate about it; it's more "okay" to respond to rudeness with a refusal or excuse. But some people are unable to say "no" to polite requests for assistance even when they have to lie to accept convincingly. Even if it's hugely inconvenient for them, and only of minimal benefit to the asker. So they say "yes", and probably do whatever it is, and then will try to find a way to avoid the asker in future (don't pick up their calls, etc). There's some argument that everyone would benefit from a more "American" (ideal, not always real) and more direct approach -- e.g., someone asks "would it be easy for you to..." and you answer "sorry, no", and no one is upset. But this is next to impossible in some cultures, and there's also value in (if you're the asker) putting more thought into how you can value other peoples' time more accurately.
franciscop 11y ago
You just oppened my eyes. Being a programmer from Spain I receive an average of 2-3 project proposals for free from friends and acquaintances per week. To friends I normally explain why not, but to acquaintances it's way easier to say I don't have time than to explain why I don't think it's a good idea or that I just don't want to work for them for free, which is expected for side projects or internships in here. Now I'm also experimenting with asking for how much when it's work-like and some people just back off. Then from time to time an awesome project with shared workloads comes and I magically find the time to do it (;

derefr 11y ago

More commonly known, in competitive rather than cooperative endeavor, as the scrub mentality. From http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/more-on-losing http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/more-on-losing: > The loser usually takes the imagined moral high ground by sticking to his Code of Honor, a made-up set of personal rules that tells him which moves he can and cannot do. Of course, the rules of the game itself dictate which moves a player can and cannot make, so the Code of Honor is superfluous and counterproductive toward winning. [...] This type of player is trying desperately to remain a “winner” any way possible. If you catch him amidst a sea of losses, you’ll notice that his Code will undergo strange contortions so that he may still define himself, somehow, as a “winner.” Working long hours, showing people unfinished prototypes, etc. are such "Codes of Honor." For the people who work under such rules, even if their output stinks, they can still feel like keeping to their Code has made them a "winner." Even if, y'know, the ROI on their time and effort was effectively zero.

placeybordeaux 11y ago
This is one of the many things that starcraft taught me. If my goal is to be better, there is little point in placing blame on anything except what is under my control. If the opponent uses a strategy that seems unfair, then I should use that strategy. If they are using a high risk strategy, instead of saying that they are just gambling and being mad at them I should instead become better at finding out if they are going to take that path and deal with it. When it comes to improvement it is self defeating to say that anything out of your control was the problem. If that was in fact the case you shouldn't have let that situtation arise. If someone else is constantly causing a problem for you then you need to create a situation where they can't cause you problems anymore. Be that improve their abilities, isolate yourself from them or be good enough to solve that problem. Then again I never quite made it to the grandmasters league.
seivan 11y ago
You and Sam pretty much shredded 'a friend' in words... harsh but accurate. 'Friend' has to reflect on this now.
d0mine 11y ago
Would you torture and rape to win? If not, why?

chris_wot 11y ago

I'm a bit confused... Is he saying overwork is good to shield you from over expectations and mistakes?

skrebbel 11y ago
Yes. And then he says that if we could come up with better shields than that, then maybe we could overwork less.

skrebbel 11y ago

As a European, this article intrigues me. In most European industries, overwork isn't at all celebrated as much as in the US (from what I can tell reading HN). But this article's reasoning makes sense. So do we have different social shields in place? If I work 8-ish hours a day and screw up, what's my excuse? I can't completely figure this one out.

capisce 11y ago
Maybe it's less of a problem in Europe as American work culture is more demanding and stressful: http://lifehacker.com/5751875/five-traits-low-stress-happy-work-cultures-have-in-common http://lifehacker.com/5751875/five-traits-low-stress-happy-w... And everyone screws up from time to time, organizations should understand that too much fear of breaking things is not a good thing: http://engineering.teacherspayteachers.com/2015/10/11/the-fear-of-breaking-things.html http://engineering.teacherspayteachers.com/2015/10/11/the-fe... Instead of focusing on blame they should focus on processes to avoid the screw-up from happening again.
Cthulhu_ 11y ago
I can see mentalities like this - less strict working hours, work related communication continuing after work hours, etc - creeping up rapidly in Europe / my world though. I have some colleagues that go home mid-afternoon (to pick up the kids from work), but then work for a couple hours more in the evening. That makes it appear to me (and, more importantly, my boss) that they work longer hours, which causes some performance anxiety. Me, I prefer to work 9-5. It's boring, but it's sustainable and does not cause me stress about whether I'm working the 40 hours / week my contract tells me to do.
fasteo 11y ago
My bet is that you are from northern Europe. Overwork is highly celebrated in the Mediterranean coast. Speaking from Spain.
- skrebbel 11y ago
  True! And indeed, did not know that.

binaryapparatus 11y ago

Excellent article. I have always been fascinated with how conscious / subconscious brain works and deeper I dig stranger things are there to observe. Almost all that appears on the surface is not what it seems after analysis. We are all actors, whether willing to admit or not. "You are not really John" http://www.wimp.com/goodactor/ http://www.wimp.com/goodactor/

imrehg 11y ago

Oh, on my work computer WinXP + Chrome I end up with a "This webpage is not available ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH" (though looking at the ssltest result, I should tell this to Cloudflare)

kazagistar 11y ago

I don't feel like I have this motivation, but I also cannot identify a rational reason for still being up at 4:40 am.

TurboHaskal 11y ago

Posted at 2:00 AM.

stronglikedan 11y ago
> Posted 10/17/2015, 8:00:00 PM Likely adjusted for timezone. EST here.

ommunist 11y ago

Actually, author's observation is bullseye. Self-sabotage to lower bosses' expectation is the reason of the crappy look of the modern Internet visual environment, and who knows for how much of its guts.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
This seems to be corollary of the old adage: "the better you get, the better you'd better get".

SZJX 11y ago

That's a very peculiar perspective to say the least. However I don't think it makes much sense TBH. Nobody would lower his/her expectation of the work just because that guy said he worked so hard and didn't even sleep much in the past several months. On the contrary, the more likely thought is that "you've worked so hard and sacrificed a lot already, then the work you've done must be awesome, otherwise you're really even more of a fail." If the guy said that he just did a random side project for 1 hour per day, then the expectation would indeed be much lower. So I can't see myself agreeing with the author's line of reasoning. Pointing out that people sometimes would like "freedom to fail" for more personal projects is a good point, and a wish to lower expectations of others is indeed commonly seen in many occasions (reasonable/moderate or not), but this attribution of reason seems quite arbitrary. In any case, overworking and sleep deprivation are definitely bad. No matter what the reason behind them and what actions to be taken, they should not be an acceptable norm for any sane person. That's for sure.