6 ms·

Have there been any cases of police illegally forcing fingerprint unlock against a person's express consent? Finger unlock is nice when you're in a non-hostile

by seiji 11y ago

Have there been any cases of police illegally forcing fingerprint unlock against a person's express consent? Finger unlock is nice when you're in a non-hostile environment, but now with a 100ms finger brush, the entire phone opens up wide and says "take all my data!" I wish iPhones had a feature like "if dropped on the floor (or after any 'significant' impact), remove session key to disable finger print auth and require password again." Then when you gotta cheese it, you just throw and go.

n0us 11y ago
I think they can legally fingerprint you and use that to unlock the phone but they cannot force you to reveal your password because you would be forced to incriminate yourself. (If you did in fact commit a crime)
- avn2109 11y ago
  This is just more evidence supporting the claim, which has already been persuasively argued elsewhere, [0] that fingerprints are usernames, not passwords. [0] http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2013/10/fingerprints-are-user-names-not.html http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2013/10/fingerprints-are-user...
  - schrodinger 11y ago
    It's way more nuanced than that. Fingerprints are certainly way more like a password versus an adversary like a crazy girlfriend who gets your phone, but closer to a username against a very formidable adversary. Certainly not equal though.
    - calgoo 11y ago
      So more like a token?
EiZei 11y ago
Or you could just turn since first authentication after booting requires a passcode.
- seiji 11y ago
  Situation: you're arrested/captured/etc. All they have to do is, on a new 6S phone, touch your finger to the sensor for 1/10th of a second. There's no emergency evac situation. You either have basically no protection from hostile action or you avoid finger auth.
  - ViViDboarder 11y ago
    I think it's to be determined if that would be an illegal search.
    - rogeryu 11y ago
      If they do stuff like that, they will probably deny that they did it. Having had access to your phone, they can look for information that can be used to find other leads, that will be strong enough for a court order.
  - Retra 11y ago
    If you're an international spy or something, maybe don't store your top secret data on consumer-grade electronics.
    - seiji 11y ago
      Or someone you sleep with wants to read your texts and all it takes is a light tap of a finger while you're unconscious to open your phone completely. as far as "international spy," we have national level security directors storing secrets in AOL accounts. We can't protect people from themselves, so we have to make systems better for everybody.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
kbenson 11y ago
Why would they have to force that? It's not too hard to manufacture something that will bypass the fingerprint unlock using rubber cement or silicon gel, especially for an organization that is one of the few expected to have your fingerprints on file (at least in the scenario we are describing, where you're already in custody).
- seiji 11y ago
  Also: finger unlock only works after a password has been entered once (to generate the "finger unlock" key). Copying fingerprints or compelling finger access is moot if the device dumps the finger unlock key (as is done after 48 hours of no finger auth or after 5 (?) failed finger auth attempts). But, trying to revoke the finger auth key in an emergency (less than 5 seconds) is difficult. Your only option is to try and quickly power off the device, but you're at the mercy of the "press and hold sleep/wake button for 5 seconds, then slide to turn off" delay timer.
  - idlewords 11y ago
    Or quickly chew off your fingers.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - evan_ 11y ago
    If you hold the power and face buttons for about 10 seconds the phone will turn off. Takes two hands though.
  - srwx 11y ago
    Android dumps all "smart unlock" options when you press and hold (1 second) on the 'slide to unlock' on screen button and forces passcode/password/pin from that point on. I practice doing this so it's not foreign to me if I ever find myself in a dodgy scenario.
    - gambiting 11y ago
acdha 11y ago
How often does that happen outside of TV? In most cases where you have legal protection which actually works, you would also be able to power down the phone. In most of the other scenarios, most people are going to unlock it anyway under the threat of a beating or threats that non-cooperation will result in heavy/fabricated charges.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  > threats that non-cooperation will result in heavy/fabricated charges. Being DA 101
prawn 11y ago
Fingerprint unlock allows 5 fingers on file. Maybe if you attempted an unlock with a different finger (pinky, say), it locked out that method until you'd used your passcode instead? Similar to the idea of having a second PIN on your credit card that allows access but indicates acting-under-duress to the bank.
- seiji 11y ago
  Yeah, there are a lot of clever ways it could be done, but with completely closed platforms we are just at the mercy of our proprietarily coded overlords.
  - prawn 11y ago
    Can appreciate that, but I do think Apple are showing genuine signs of caring about users in this area.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    The other ones the code is just there to take it, code review it and use any loopholes.
- Forlien 11y ago
  When police departments seize electronics, like phones or computers, I thought it was standard for them to clone any hard drives so that they don't lose any data to similar techniques. Is there a reason that they couldn't employ this countermeasure for your suggested security?
  - nickff 11y ago
    It is possible to secure devices in ways that even the correct passcode or fingerprint will only work with a specific chipset/decryption module. Some flash storage is also only readable after an unlock code has been transmitted.
- sah2ed 11y ago
  > Similar to the idea of having a second PIN on your credit card that allows access but indicates acting-under-duress to the bank. Sounds like you are alluding to being able to use a reverse version of your PIN on an ATM when in duress? It's a trope [0]. [0] http://www.snopes.com/business/bank/pinalert.asp http://www.snopes.com/business/bank/pinalert.asp
mattlutze 11y ago
There's a setting, in the most recent iOS at least, you can enable where 10 failed fingerprint attempts will trigger the phone to wipe itself.
Shivetya 11y ago
I just like the idea of training it to learn different fingers... you know what I mean. just like it needs passcodes that do that same, if not more. a passcode to let you in, one to CALL the cops, and another to thwart them

by seiji 11y ago

n0us 11y ago

I think they can legally fingerprint you and use that to unlock the phone but they cannot force you to reveal your password because you would be forced to incriminate yourself. (If you did in fact commit a crime)

avn2109 11y ago
This is just more evidence supporting the claim, which has already been persuasively argued elsewhere, [0] that fingerprints are usernames, not passwords. [0] http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2013/10/fingerprints-are-user-names-not.html http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2013/10/fingerprints-are-user...
- schrodinger 11y ago
  It's way more nuanced than that. Fingerprints are certainly way more like a password versus an adversary like a crazy girlfriend who gets your phone, but closer to a username against a very formidable adversary. Certainly not equal though.
  - calgoo 11y ago
    So more like a token?

EiZei 11y ago

Or you could just turn since first authentication after booting requires a passcode.

seiji 11y ago
Situation: you're arrested/captured/etc. All they have to do is, on a new 6S phone, touch your finger to the sensor for 1/10th of a second. There's no emergency evac situation. You either have basically no protection from hostile action or you avoid finger auth.
- ViViDboarder 11y ago
  I think it's to be determined if that would be an illegal search.
  - rogeryu 11y ago
    If they do stuff like that, they will probably deny that they did it. Having had access to your phone, they can look for information that can be used to find other leads, that will be strong enough for a court order.
- Retra 11y ago
  If you're an international spy or something, maybe don't store your top secret data on consumer-grade electronics.
  - seiji 11y ago
    Or someone you sleep with wants to read your texts and all it takes is a light tap of a finger while you're unconscious to open your phone completely. as far as "international spy," we have national level security directors storing secrets in AOL accounts. We can't protect people from themselves, so we have to make systems better for everybody.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]

kbenson 11y ago

Why would they have to force that? It's not too hard to manufacture something that will bypass the fingerprint unlock using rubber cement or silicon gel, especially for an organization that is one of the few expected to have your fingerprints on file (at least in the scenario we are describing, where you're already in custody).

seiji 11y ago
Also: finger unlock only works after a password has been entered once (to generate the "finger unlock" key). Copying fingerprints or compelling finger access is moot if the device dumps the finger unlock key (as is done after 48 hours of no finger auth or after 5 (?) failed finger auth attempts). But, trying to revoke the finger auth key in an emergency (less than 5 seconds) is difficult. Your only option is to try and quickly power off the device, but you're at the mercy of the "press and hold sleep/wake button for 5 seconds, then slide to turn off" delay timer.
- idlewords 11y ago
  Or quickly chew off your fingers.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- evan_ 11y ago
  If you hold the power and face buttons for about 10 seconds the phone will turn off. Takes two hands though.
- srwx 11y ago
  Android dumps all "smart unlock" options when you press and hold (1 second) on the 'slide to unlock' on screen button and forces passcode/password/pin from that point on. I practice doing this so it's not foreign to me if I ever find myself in a dodgy scenario.
  - gambiting 11y ago

acdha 11y ago

How often does that happen outside of TV? In most cases where you have legal protection which actually works, you would also be able to power down the phone. In most of the other scenarios, most people are going to unlock it anyway under the threat of a beating or threats that non-cooperation will result in heavy/fabricated charges.

venomsnake 11y ago
> threats that non-cooperation will result in heavy/fabricated charges. Being DA 101

prawn 11y ago

Fingerprint unlock allows 5 fingers on file. Maybe if you attempted an unlock with a different finger (pinky, say), it locked out that method until you'd used your passcode instead? Similar to the idea of having a second PIN on your credit card that allows access but indicates acting-under-duress to the bank.

seiji 11y ago
Yeah, there are a lot of clever ways it could be done, but with completely closed platforms we are just at the mercy of our proprietarily coded overlords.
- prawn 11y ago
  Can appreciate that, but I do think Apple are showing genuine signs of caring about users in this area.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  The other ones the code is just there to take it, code review it and use any loopholes.
Forlien 11y ago
When police departments seize electronics, like phones or computers, I thought it was standard for them to clone any hard drives so that they don't lose any data to similar techniques. Is there a reason that they couldn't employ this countermeasure for your suggested security?
- nickff 11y ago
  It is possible to secure devices in ways that even the correct passcode or fingerprint will only work with a specific chipset/decryption module. Some flash storage is also only readable after an unlock code has been transmitted.
sah2ed 11y ago
> Similar to the idea of having a second PIN on your credit card that allows access but indicates acting-under-duress to the bank. Sounds like you are alluding to being able to use a reverse version of your PIN on an ATM when in duress? It's a trope [0]. [0] http://www.snopes.com/business/bank/pinalert.asp http://www.snopes.com/business/bank/pinalert.asp

mattlutze 11y ago

There's a setting, in the most recent iOS at least, you can enable where 10 failed fingerprint attempts will trigger the phone to wipe itself.

Shivetya 11y ago

I just like the idea of training it to learn different fingers... you know what I mean. just like it needs passcodes that do that same, if not more. a passcode to let you in, one to CALL the cops, and another to thwart them