3 ms·

> For example, we do that in operating systems, where operating system itself is deterministic but each application lives in non-deterministic environment, beca

> For example, we do that in operating systems, where operating system itself is deterministic but each application lives in non-deterministic environment, because it doesn't know what other applications or processes are running inside the system. This may be a bit nit-picky, but if i understand correctly, the fact that other agents in the system influence the one you understand in ways you don't is not the same as non-determinism. Arguably, if you knew the exact system date and all other software installed, you could predict exactly how your program would behave. It's just because most systems are sloppily specified (if at all, mind) that this isn't how it works. But maybe i'm missing something fundamental ;).

asgard1024 11y ago
> Arguably, if you knew the exact system date and all other software installed, you could predict exactly how your program would behave. First of all, there is a difference between what you can predict about the system and what you want the system to be. Since even on nondeterministic system you can build a deterministic one, it doesn't matter what you can or cannot predict about the underlying system. If you want a deterministic system, you can simply ignore the unpredictable parts by averaging over them. Although, if you know the other software, you could predict the system. But normal application, unless it has root privileges or there are privilege escalation loopholes, cannot inspect the whole system and cannot see all the processes that go on. Therefore, deterministic modelling of the system from a perspective of one application is impossible. But there is actually a simpler example. Just take an application using the pseudorandom number generator. You can't know if there are other processes using the generator too, so once you use pseudorandom generator, your application becomes non-deterministic. If on the other hand the application wants to be deterministic, all it has to do is not use system-wide generator of randomness, regardless of whether the generator is actually deterministic or not. The point is, for free will to exist, it doesn't really matter if the universe is deterministic. Just as it doesn't matter in D&D game if the result is determined by dice rolls or a pseudo-random number generator with a known starting seed. People cannot calculate the latter in their heads, so the difference won't affect their reasoning (these things are conditionally dependent on the observed reality); that's all that matters.

asgard1024 11y ago

> Arguably, if you knew the exact system date and all other software installed, you could predict exactly how your program would behave. First of all, there is a difference between what you can predict about the system and what you want the system to be. Since even on nondeterministic system you can build a deterministic one, it doesn't matter what you can or cannot predict about the underlying system. If you want a deterministic system, you can simply ignore the unpredictable parts by averaging over them. Although, if you know the other software, you could predict the system. But normal application, unless it has root privileges or there are privilege escalation loopholes, cannot inspect the whole system and cannot see all the processes that go on. Therefore, deterministic modelling of the system from a perspective of one application is impossible. But there is actually a simpler example. Just take an application using the pseudorandom number generator. You can't know if there are other processes using the generator too, so once you use pseudorandom generator, your application becomes non-deterministic. If on the other hand the application wants to be deterministic, all it has to do is not use system-wide generator of randomness, regardless of whether the generator is actually deterministic or not. The point is, for free will to exist, it doesn't really matter if the universe is deterministic. Just as it doesn't matter in D&D game if the result is determined by dice rolls or a pseudo-random number generator with a known starting seed. People cannot calculate the latter in their heads, so the difference won't affect their reasoning (these things are conditionally dependent on the observed reality); that's all that matters.