4 ms·

Meh. The counterpoint. Her: I'm on the pill. Him: Okay. 9 months later we find out she lied. Both men and women should have access to contraceptives. Saying th

Meh. The counterpoint. Her: I'm on the pill. Him: Okay. 9 months later we find out she lied. Both men and women should have access to contraceptives. Saying that one gender is less trust worthy then another is ridiculous.

anigbrowl 11y ago
Possible, but if you want us to the ignore the hugely differing economic incentives for men and women wrt pregnancy then the discussion isn't going to go anywhere.
- AlexEatsKittens 11y ago
  >Possible, but if you want us to the ignore the hugely differing economic incentives for men and women wrt pregnancy then the discussion isn't going to go anywhere. What possible incentive is there for a man to impregnate a woman, especially without her desire? I don't think many guys are out there begging to pay child support.
  - scott_s 11y ago
    There is no incentive for man to impregnate a woman. That question, however, takes pregnancy as the given outcome. A man does have incentive to have sex: he likes it. anigbrowl's point was simple: by most measures, pregnancy is more "expensive" for women than for men, so women have higher incentives to not take the risk.
    - JupiterMoon 11y ago
      Sorry how is paying 18 years of child support for a child you could easily have no rights to even see not really very expensive?
      - scott_s 11y ago
        It is. But it's still not as "expensive" as pregnancy for a woman. I use scare quotes because I don't just mean monetary costs, but all kinds of costs.
        JupiterMoon 11y ago
        You're still missing the benefit side of the cost/value equation. It might not seem like this to you but having a child is a major value to many people. A woman has multiple options to prevent unwanted children (including two after the fact options). She therefore has full control of the child/no-child outcome based upon cost/value for her personal situation. A man has two options to prevent childbirth: a permanent vasectomy or using a condom (these fail and they fail too often in real world settings). A man has limited (or in the case of a condom mishap potentially no) control and potentially if the woman decides it should be so no value whatsoever.
        JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        Add in, that sex makes people act irrationally. Options like condoms can be even less effective if they're not used.
        scott_s 11y ago
        I completely understand the upside. I am, however, assuming a situation where both parties do not want to have a child, right then. The original scenario was, implicitly, casual sex. (Original scenario: "her: do you have protection? him: um, sure. I'm taking that, uh, that pill thing.") We can be more charitable and assume that scenario could play out a few months into dating. In such situations, not wanting a pregnancy is generally taken as a given. The entire discussion - birth control - even assumes that pregnancy, at the moment, is not wanted. So I'm confused why you're bring up the value of having children (which I do not deny) in a discussion about the incentives for men and women in avoiding unwanted pregnancy. Perhaps your confusion is that I stated "There is no incentive for man to impregnate a woman", and you interpreted that as a universal statement. It was not. It was a direct response to the question for a man's motives in the given scenario, which assumes unwanted pregnancy.
    - ambicapter 11y ago
      Oh right, because women don't enjoy sex.
      - scott_s 11y ago
        I did not mean to imply anything of the sort. However, Alex spoke specifically to what the incentives for men are, so I explained the incentives I think men have. For women, I only mentioned the risks. I think a charitable reading of what I said would assume that I think women also have positive incentives.
      - anigbrowl 11y ago
        Don't be so stupid. Men and women both enjoy sex but pregnancy involves a lot of extra physical work for the woman because it takes ~9 months to grow another human being (or more than 1) that's 5-10% of the woman's own body weight, not to mention that human infants are completely helpless for a long time after birth, in contrast to many other animals. This is just a fact of biology before you look at any of the social contextual factors.
  - gknoy 11y ago
    The incentive is the net present value of having sex Right Now, versus the cost of money, being unable to sleep for the next 18 years, and financial obligations. Given how often people (in general) don't use a condom, even when they're available, I get the impression that most guys are not thinking very hard about the future.
    - JupiterMoon 11y ago
      Plus the benefit of raising your child and watching him/her grow up.
- dikdik 11y ago
  In the prejudiced US family court system, women have more of an economic incentive to lie about birth control than men.
- cheez 11y ago
  Would be helpful if you outlined these incentives!

anigbrowl 11y ago

Possible, but if you want us to the ignore the hugely differing economic incentives for men and women wrt pregnancy then the discussion isn't going to go anywhere.

AlexEatsKittens 11y ago
>Possible, but if you want us to the ignore the hugely differing economic incentives for men and women wrt pregnancy then the discussion isn't going to go anywhere. What possible incentive is there for a man to impregnate a woman, especially without her desire? I don't think many guys are out there begging to pay child support.
- scott_s 11y ago
  There is no incentive for man to impregnate a woman. That question, however, takes pregnancy as the given outcome. A man does have incentive to have sex: he likes it. anigbrowl's point was simple: by most measures, pregnancy is more "expensive" for women than for men, so women have higher incentives to not take the risk.
  - JupiterMoon 11y ago
    Sorry how is paying 18 years of child support for a child you could easily have no rights to even see not really very expensive?
    - scott_s 11y ago
      It is. But it's still not as "expensive" as pregnancy for a woman. I use scare quotes because I don't just mean monetary costs, but all kinds of costs.
      - JupiterMoon 11y ago
        You're still missing the benefit side of the cost/value equation. It might not seem like this to you but having a child is a major value to many people. A woman has multiple options to prevent unwanted children (including two after the fact options). She therefore has full control of the child/no-child outcome based upon cost/value for her personal situation. A man has two options to prevent childbirth: a permanent vasectomy or using a condom (these fail and they fail too often in real world settings). A man has limited (or in the case of a condom mishap potentially no) control and potentially if the woman decides it should be so no value whatsoever.
        JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        Add in, that sex makes people act irrationally. Options like condoms can be even less effective if they're not used.
        scott_s 11y ago
        I completely understand the upside. I am, however, assuming a situation where both parties do not want to have a child, right then. The original scenario was, implicitly, casual sex. (Original scenario: "her: do you have protection? him: um, sure. I'm taking that, uh, that pill thing.") We can be more charitable and assume that scenario could play out a few months into dating. In such situations, not wanting a pregnancy is generally taken as a given. The entire discussion - birth control - even assumes that pregnancy, at the moment, is not wanted. So I'm confused why you're bring up the value of having children (which I do not deny) in a discussion about the incentives for men and women in avoiding unwanted pregnancy. Perhaps your confusion is that I stated "There is no incentive for man to impregnate a woman", and you interpreted that as a universal statement. It was not. It was a direct response to the question for a man's motives in the given scenario, which assumes unwanted pregnancy.
  - ambicapter 11y ago
    Oh right, because women don't enjoy sex.
    - scott_s 11y ago
      I did not mean to imply anything of the sort. However, Alex spoke specifically to what the incentives for men are, so I explained the incentives I think men have. For women, I only mentioned the risks. I think a charitable reading of what I said would assume that I think women also have positive incentives.
    - anigbrowl 11y ago
      Don't be so stupid. Men and women both enjoy sex but pregnancy involves a lot of extra physical work for the woman because it takes ~9 months to grow another human being (or more than 1) that's 5-10% of the woman's own body weight, not to mention that human infants are completely helpless for a long time after birth, in contrast to many other animals. This is just a fact of biology before you look at any of the social contextual factors.
- gknoy 11y ago
  The incentive is the net present value of having sex Right Now, versus the cost of money, being unable to sleep for the next 18 years, and financial obligations. Given how often people (in general) don't use a condom, even when they're available, I get the impression that most guys are not thinking very hard about the future.
  - JupiterMoon 11y ago
    Plus the benefit of raising your child and watching him/her grow up.
dikdik 11y ago
In the prejudiced US family court system, women have more of an economic incentive to lie about birth control than men.
cheez 11y ago
Would be helpful if you outlined these incentives!