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Is this person going to be goddamn annoying to be around 40-45 hours a week? (Oh, how this has happened.) Does this non-medical phd demand to be addressed as

by x0x0 11y ago

Is this person going to be goddamn annoying to be around 40-45 hours a week? (Oh, how this has happened.) Does this non-medical phd demand to be addressed as doctor? (Yes, this happened.) Does he or she seem willing to do his or her share of the scut work? Is he or she a failed academic who is getting an industry job and going to be a pain about it, or is this what he or she wants to do? How much supervision does the candidate require? Initiative? If he or she runs out of work, is he or she going to to sit there and do fuck-all until I notice or will the candidate be proactive about getting more to do? I understand some of our code is under tested, but unlike TDD wankery, there is a real business cost to spending a bunch of time writing tests and, since those systems are either mostly finished / slowly changing, or on their way out, is this candidate going to be difficult or suck it up and deal? (Yes, this happened. See also scut work and/or the realities of living in our fallen world.) We've made a decision to standardize on scala/java and js/some frontend package I'm not sure of. I understand this isn't react or the new hotness; does this candidate seem like he or she will throw a fit then spend two months working on a service in a language nobody else uses (yes, this happened. And he was surprised when he was terminated. There were other issues but this was the proverbial straw.) Hygiene. This should go without saying, but apparently I am cursed. If I can smell you in an interview, we're done. (And yes, this has happened.) One more set of edits as the bad memories come back: You look at my two female data scientists and a female engineering peer and the one female office manager and ask why there are so many secretaries working here? Yes, this happened. You call one of my female directs "sweetie." Yes, this happened. We're talking on the phone and you couldn't be arsed to spend 10 minutes on our site and come up with a 1-2 sentence summary of what the company does. You can be wrong, but you must demonstrate minimal interest. And to be clear about the level of detail: if I were airbnb and you said platform to allow people to rent out their homes for short stays, that would be awesome.

protomyth 11y ago
I don't think any from that list is really cultural. They range from basic professional behavior to basic polite society behavior. I've run into people with the hygiene part. I've dealt with farmers who have just dealt with their pigs that smelled better than some folks I've encountered. Also, "sweetie", really? When I was younger (teens) I offended someone by saying "Ma'am"[1], but I'm pretty sure I would have took a swat to the head from my parents if I ever said "sweetie". 1) I'm pretty sure at this late date (20+ years ago), she was a bit ticked that I used "Ma'am" instead of "Miss" implying she was older than she was. I'm pretty sure she was between 18 and 20, and I was 15 and looked a lot older.
- x0x0 11y ago
  Professional and polite behavior is cultural fit :) Or at least the working definition at this and previous employers where I've been a hiring manager.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  >I don't think any from that list is really cultural It looks to me like a laundry list of requirements that they wouldn't admit in polite company or want to have documented in their company records, or advertise on their website. They wouldn't want to put off any investors with bad breath, a PhD, or a penchant for saying 'sweetie', after all. Also, one of the items clearly advertises an objective deficiency in their working practices. It's pretty plain why they'd want to keep that under wraps. So yea, less about culture and more about having a list of hidden requirements.
nommm-nommm 11y ago
> Does this non-medical phd demand to be addressed as doctor? (Yes, this happened.) WTF is wrong with that!?!? It is polite to address someone the way they want to be addressed. I address my PhD holding colleagues as Dr. very often though none are medical doctors. I can't imagine how this is an issue for anyone ever.
- x0x0 11y ago
  Unless you're an MD, I'm not calling you doctor, and it's a 5-nines indicator you're a jumped up prick. In english, Dr. is a honorific reserved for MDs, dentists, and psychiatrists.
  - protomyth 11y ago
    If you ever have to work in an academic setting then you will probably see a lot of folks requiring the title. It's a pecking order thing and there are rules.
    - x0x0 11y ago
      I get that there's an academic pecking order around this. But I work in industry and see previous post about people who couldn't hack it in academia and want to come to industry and treat it as if it were academia. They will not work out, and I'm uninterested in having their pecking order games in my team.
      - protomyth 11y ago
        If there was any confusion, I most definitely meant in an academic setting, and would not generalize my answer to other settings.
    - nommm-nommm 11y ago
      Everyone different ideas. This is what Miss Manners says: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/miss-manners-graduation-cake-is-to-be-eaten-not-reserved/2014/05/20/924f347c-dd23-11e3-b745-87d39690c5c0_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/miss-manners-... DEAR MISS MANNERS: My future sister-in-law just graduated with her PhD She told me to call her “doctor,” but I was always told that if you don’t work with someone directly in their field, that doesn’t apply. Is that true? I understand it’s out of respect, but I have never addressed other persons with their PhD as “doctor.” They also put PhD at the end of their names, teach at universities and don’t go by “doctor.” GENTLE READER: There are two attitudes that individuals and universities take toward the use of the title “doctor” for those who hold PhDs. One is that having been earned, it should be used, not only in professional situations when needed for identification, especially in academic positions, but also socially. The other is not to use it — not socially, but especially not in academic positions, because that level of education being assumed, it need not be expressly mentioned. As one professor (namely, Miss Manners’s Uncle Selig) once put it, “A PhD is like a nose — everyone has one. It’s only conspicuous if you don’t have one.” Which form of snobbery is preferable, or perhaps more effective, others can decide. Obviously, your prospective sister-in-law espouses the first-named approach. And she is covered by two rules: 1. Address people as they wish to be addressed. 2. Try not to annoy your relatives unnecessarily.
vacri 11y ago
What you describe isn't culture fit, but not hiring arseholes. 'Culture fit' suggests traits that aren't suitable for your company, but are suitable for others. Your list is a series of bad points for pretty much any company.
DanBC 11y ago
> Hygiene. This should go without saying, but apparently I am cursed. If I can smell you in an interview, we're done. (And yes, this has happened.) Just a note: sometimes this is BO caused by medication. You want to avoid saying "I didn't hire you because you smell" because that may be a result of a protected characteristic. A reasonable adjustment would be that the person has a trusted friend who will tell them if they smell or not, and will shower before they get to work and will use deodorant products. A bit less common would be "fish odor syndrome" or Trimethylaminuria. http://www.channel4embarrassingillnesses.com/conditions/fish-odour-syndrome/ http://www.channel4embarrassingillnesses.com/conditions/fish... You probably don't want to be cruel to people who suffer from an illness that they have no control of.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  Back in high school I worked with a guy who had BO. His roommate (who I also worked with) told me that he didnt actually have a hygiene problem. Showered every day but for some reason he still had BO. I'm not sure how true that is but thats one data point. Since some food and medicine can cause your pee to smell really weird it makes sense it can screw with the smell of your sweat too.
crdoconnor 11y ago
>I understand some of our code is under tested, but unlike TDD wankery, there is a real business cost to spending a bunch of time writing tests and, since those systems are either mostly finished / slowly changing, or on their way out, is this candidate going to be difficult or suck it up and deal? (Yes, this happened. See also scut work and/or the realities of living in our fallen world.) I had a feeling that somewhere along the list of "candidate must not make us put up with any of their bullshit" there would be something saying "candidate must be willing to put up with a metric ton of our bullshit".
- x0x0 11y ago
  Allow me to highlight what I wrote: either mostly finished / slowly changing, or on their way out Most of those old systems support a part of the business that is dying and are maintenance only, but occasionally they do need some extra duct tape. We minimize any investment at this point. At this point it's a day or two of work a month spread across a team, but everyone takes a turn.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    I don't see the point. Either shut it down completely because it's not worth the investment to maintain or do it properly. Test driven development is a practice that is most valuable on legacy code. Only doing it on new code and not old code is ass-backwards. If anything it should be the other way around. A half assed hack job to support remaining customers will likely only end up alienating them when you inevitably break stuff they rely upon with duct tape. Alienated customers tend to drop you forever and run into a competitor's arms. YMMV but that's always been my experience.
    - x0x0 11y ago
      The point is money. It shouldn't be hard to imagine a business that is earning money but will never again grow, is worth no further investment, and is therefore being run out. I reread what I wrote; you appear to be deliberately obtuse.

by x0x0 11y ago

protomyth 11y ago

I don't think any from that list is really cultural. They range from basic professional behavior to basic polite society behavior. I've run into people with the hygiene part. I've dealt with farmers who have just dealt with their pigs that smelled better than some folks I've encountered. Also, "sweetie", really? When I was younger (teens) I offended someone by saying "Ma'am"[1], but I'm pretty sure I would have took a swat to the head from my parents if I ever said "sweetie". 1) I'm pretty sure at this late date (20+ years ago), she was a bit ticked that I used "Ma'am" instead of "Miss" implying she was older than she was. I'm pretty sure she was between 18 and 20, and I was 15 and looked a lot older.

x0x0 11y ago
Professional and polite behavior is cultural fit :) Or at least the working definition at this and previous employers where I've been a hiring manager.
crdoconnor 11y ago
>I don't think any from that list is really cultural It looks to me like a laundry list of requirements that they wouldn't admit in polite company or want to have documented in their company records, or advertise on their website. They wouldn't want to put off any investors with bad breath, a PhD, or a penchant for saying 'sweetie', after all. Also, one of the items clearly advertises an objective deficiency in their working practices. It's pretty plain why they'd want to keep that under wraps. So yea, less about culture and more about having a list of hidden requirements.

nommm-nommm 11y ago

> Does this non-medical phd demand to be addressed as doctor? (Yes, this happened.) WTF is wrong with that!?!? It is polite to address someone the way they want to be addressed. I address my PhD holding colleagues as Dr. very often though none are medical doctors. I can't imagine how this is an issue for anyone ever.

x0x0 11y ago
Unless you're an MD, I'm not calling you doctor, and it's a 5-nines indicator you're a jumped up prick. In english, Dr. is a honorific reserved for MDs, dentists, and psychiatrists.
- protomyth 11y ago
  If you ever have to work in an academic setting then you will probably see a lot of folks requiring the title. It's a pecking order thing and there are rules.
  - x0x0 11y ago
    I get that there's an academic pecking order around this. But I work in industry and see previous post about people who couldn't hack it in academia and want to come to industry and treat it as if it were academia. They will not work out, and I'm uninterested in having their pecking order games in my team.
    - protomyth 11y ago
      If there was any confusion, I most definitely meant in an academic setting, and would not generalize my answer to other settings.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    Everyone different ideas. This is what Miss Manners says: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/miss-manners-graduation-cake-is-to-be-eaten-not-reserved/2014/05/20/924f347c-dd23-11e3-b745-87d39690c5c0_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/miss-manners-... DEAR MISS MANNERS: My future sister-in-law just graduated with her PhD She told me to call her “doctor,” but I was always told that if you don’t work with someone directly in their field, that doesn’t apply. Is that true? I understand it’s out of respect, but I have never addressed other persons with their PhD as “doctor.” They also put PhD at the end of their names, teach at universities and don’t go by “doctor.” GENTLE READER: There are two attitudes that individuals and universities take toward the use of the title “doctor” for those who hold PhDs. One is that having been earned, it should be used, not only in professional situations when needed for identification, especially in academic positions, but also socially. The other is not to use it — not socially, but especially not in academic positions, because that level of education being assumed, it need not be expressly mentioned. As one professor (namely, Miss Manners’s Uncle Selig) once put it, “A PhD is like a nose — everyone has one. It’s only conspicuous if you don’t have one.” Which form of snobbery is preferable, or perhaps more effective, others can decide. Obviously, your prospective sister-in-law espouses the first-named approach. And she is covered by two rules: 1. Address people as they wish to be addressed. 2. Try not to annoy your relatives unnecessarily.

vacri 11y ago

What you describe isn't culture fit, but not hiring arseholes. 'Culture fit' suggests traits that aren't suitable for your company, but are suitable for others. Your list is a series of bad points for pretty much any company.

DanBC 11y ago

> Hygiene. This should go without saying, but apparently I am cursed. If I can smell you in an interview, we're done. (And yes, this has happened.) Just a note: sometimes this is BO caused by medication. You want to avoid saying "I didn't hire you because you smell" because that may be a result of a protected characteristic. A reasonable adjustment would be that the person has a trusted friend who will tell them if they smell or not, and will shower before they get to work and will use deodorant products. A bit less common would be "fish odor syndrome" or Trimethylaminuria. http://www.channel4embarrassingillnesses.com/conditions/fish-odour-syndrome/ http://www.channel4embarrassingillnesses.com/conditions/fish... You probably don't want to be cruel to people who suffer from an illness that they have no control of.

nommm-nommm 11y ago
Back in high school I worked with a guy who had BO. His roommate (who I also worked with) told me that he didnt actually have a hygiene problem. Showered every day but for some reason he still had BO. I'm not sure how true that is but thats one data point. Since some food and medicine can cause your pee to smell really weird it makes sense it can screw with the smell of your sweat too.

crdoconnor 11y ago

>I understand some of our code is under tested, but unlike TDD wankery, there is a real business cost to spending a bunch of time writing tests and, since those systems are either mostly finished / slowly changing, or on their way out, is this candidate going to be difficult or suck it up and deal? (Yes, this happened. See also scut work and/or the realities of living in our fallen world.) I had a feeling that somewhere along the list of "candidate must not make us put up with any of their bullshit" there would be something saying "candidate must be willing to put up with a metric ton of our bullshit".

x0x0 11y ago
Allow me to highlight what I wrote: either mostly finished / slowly changing, or on their way out Most of those old systems support a part of the business that is dying and are maintenance only, but occasionally they do need some extra duct tape. We minimize any investment at this point. At this point it's a day or two of work a month spread across a team, but everyone takes a turn.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  I don't see the point. Either shut it down completely because it's not worth the investment to maintain or do it properly. Test driven development is a practice that is most valuable on legacy code. Only doing it on new code and not old code is ass-backwards. If anything it should be the other way around. A half assed hack job to support remaining customers will likely only end up alienating them when you inevitably break stuff they rely upon with duct tape. Alienated customers tend to drop you forever and run into a competitor's arms. YMMV but that's always been my experience.
  - x0x0 11y ago
    The point is money. It shouldn't be hard to imagine a business that is earning money but will never again grow, is worth no further investment, and is therefore being run out. I reread what I wrote; you appear to be deliberately obtuse.