13 ms·

Myths of the private prison industry

35 points by allanlasser 11y ago

nateabele 11y ago
I know someone who stayed in a GEO prison. Based on everything I heard about it, I have to imagine that there's some mid-level accountant who knows exactly, down to the penny, how much money they make per inmate per day. One example: when you're given a spork with your first meal, you might think that was the spork for just that meal, and toss it out with your meal tray. Wrong move. That was your prison-issue spork. Enjoy eating with your hands for the remainder of your incarceration.
- hugh4 11y ago
  That gives me an idea: prison vouchers. Give each prisoner a voucher for a certain amount and let them choose where they want to serve out their sentence. Prisons will compete to offer tolerably humane conditions to inmates while still keeping under budget. (Prison escapes will be punished by huge fines so there's no incentive to cheap out on security.) Flaws with this system: do prisons have to take a given inmate? If not, there will be troublesome inmates nobody is willing to imprison. If so, there will be a lot of incentives to try to get rid of these troublesome prisoners as soon as they arrive. Also, there's potential for cosy arrangements between gangs and prison operators to direct business towards them in exchange for favourable treatment.
  - risk 11y ago
    I'd like to ignore everything you ever do on this website hereinafter. Is there a feature for that?
  - PebblesHD 11y ago
    And now I can't stop imagining how a free market economy for prisons would work out. Fascinating thought, especially in relation to the idea of gangs using the system in such a way! EDIT: I wonder what would happen the the idea of jurisdiction under such a system, would prisons within a certain locality get preference or would it be nation wide?
  - marcoperaza 11y ago
    You're not supposed to like prison. It's a punishment for serious misdeeds. If your suggestion was implemented, the result would be despicable. Prisons would be competing to have the most plush accommodations. The guy who was raping little kids in his van shouldn't serve his time in a nice hotel.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      > It's a punishment for serious misdeeds. That's one view. The other is that prisons are for correction and rehabilitation.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
    - pascalmemories 11y ago
      > The guy who was raping little kids in his van shouldn't serve his time in a nice hotel And there's a myth about prison right there. Spoken by someone who clearly has no idea how horrible prisons really are. And how dangerous and deadly they are for anyone even accused of offenses against children.
      - marcoperaza 11y ago
        I'm talking about hugh4's suggestion for "prison choice" with vouchers. I said nothing at all about the current prison system.
    - zeveb 11y ago
      > The guy who was raping little kids in his van shouldn't serve his time in a nice hotel. He shouldn't live, period: he should go straight from the jail where he was waiting trial, to the gallows. Prison should be for those who are bad enough to remove from society for a time, but not bad enough to execute; and since they will be returned to society, we should try to make sure that when they re-enter it they do so as productive, mentally-well members of society, rather than as beaten, brutalised future recidivists.
  - nevdka 11y ago
    The ultimate goal of prisons is (or should be) to reduce crime. Why not directly incentivise prisons to reduce recidivism? Pay big bonuses if the ex-inmates aren't arrested/convicted/etc in the 3-5 years after they're released.
    - hugh4 11y ago
      Yes, that's probably a better way of aligning incentives. Plus it could be trialled on a small scale at first with just a few prisons. The main thing you'd need to watch out for is that prisons didnt just start working hard to offload their worst prisoners elsewhere.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - dalke 11y ago
      Or use the money that would go to such a system and instead direct it towards increased social services, to help reduce the number of people who commit crimes and enter the prison system in the first place.
  - anonbanker 11y ago
    I laughed really hard at this post. I've long compared schools to prisons, but never with this much flair. People thought you were serious, to the point of wanting to ignore your future posts. That's some good satire right there. kudos to you, sir.
  - Jordrok 11y ago
    ...I think this is satire... Right? Poe's Law is really kicking my ass here. The fact that it's so hard to tell is the scary part. In any case, I alternately applaud/decry this hilarious/appalling idea.
    - hugh4 11y ago
      C'mon man, I at least critiqued my own wild-ass idea, you can do the same instead of dismissing it.
jacquesm 11y ago
> American correctional standards have been a sort of standard for policing and punishment abroad I don't see much support for that statement, fortunately. There may be countries for which this is true but for the vast majority of countries in the developed world this is not the case.
- Broken_Hippo 11y ago
  Not only that, but some country's citizens would be appalled if their prison system started mimicking the American system.
rcurry 11y ago
I really don't think prisons should be run by private corporations. I was already kind of leery about it, but the whole "kids for cash" scandal in Pennsylvania was the last straw. There's no way I can be convinced that we can ever trust a for-profit corporation to manage a prison. There are just too many opportunities for corruption.
- nosuchthing 11y ago
  They speak roughly once a week in a 15-minute phone call, and speak for another 25 minutes on a video chat. Jones says she’d travel to Texas to visit her son in person, but Hays County Jail, where he is locked up, banned visitations in November 2013. That happened shortly after the county jail entered into a contract with Securus. Since then, all family communication with inmates at Hays County goes through Securus, which charges Jones about $10 for a phone call and about $8 for a video visit. http://atavist.ibtimes.com/fcc-prison-telecom-industry http://atavist.ibtimes.com/fcc-prison-telecom-industry
  - orangecat 11y ago
    See also http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/10/inmate-calling-companies-sock-prisoners-families-with-endless-fees/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/10/inmate-calling-compa... Apparently a large amount of those fees are paid back to the prisons via "commissions", so it's basically governments auctioning off the right to take advantage of prisoners and their families.
    - mindslight 11y ago
      It's essentially the same thing that has happened across many other areas of the economy - it's impractical to own slaves, so they're rented instead.
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  The problem is that state-funded prisons have the same potential for corruption. The unions that represent the correctional officers play the same role and lobby for the same laws as the private prions do. The CCOA even lists marijuana legalization as a potential risk factor that could impact their future financial targets: > Our ability to secure new contracts to develop and manage correctional and detention facilities depends on many factors outside our control. Our growth is generally dependent upon our ability to obtain new contracts to develop and manage new correctional and detention facilities. This possible growth depends on a number of factors we cannot control, including crime rates and sentencing patterns in various jurisdictions and acceptance of privatization. The demand for our facilities and services could be adversely affected by the relaxation of enforcement efforts, leniency in conviction and sentencing practices or through the decriminalization of certain activities that are currently proscribed by our criminal laws. For instance, any changes with respect to drugs and controlled substances or illegal immigration could affect the number of persons arrested, convicted, and sentenced, thereby potentially reducing demand for correctional facilities to house them. Legislation has been proposed in numerous jurisdictions that could lower minimum sentences for some non-violent crimes and make more inmates eligible for early release based on good behavior. Also, sentencing alternatives under consideration could put some offenders on probation with electronic monitoring who would otherwise be incarcerated. Similarly, reductions in crime rates could lead to reductions in arrests, convictions and sentences requiring incarceration at correctional facilities. http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1070985/000095014406001892/g99938e10vk.htm http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1070985/0000950144060...
fredkbloggs 11y ago
While I'm not sympathetic to prison operators or the mass-incarceration system in general, this is a weak article with little substance. Declaring an assertion to be myth requires a substantial investment in disproving it. Indeed, there is not a single fact presented in opposition to what is perhaps the most important myth #1. It is possible (or damned well ought to be, and if it isn't, then that's a cause of action by itself) to account for exactly what the government and inmates are paying. Someone who makes a concerted effort to figure out what that is would be a top-notch investigative reporter. Someone who writes "Does anyone actually have proof of this? Seriously, is anyone sure that this happens?" is either ranting or a hack. When you write an article asserting that a political opponent's views are myths, you take on the burden of proof. Simply asserting (without even a reference) that no one has proven the opposite doesn't cut it, even if that's true. There are similar problems with the other "myths", such as attempting to rebut the notion that private prison operations have limited influence by showing a graph of private prison populations (one that, I might add, doesn't exactly bolster the case). So what? If 8% (or 20% or X%) of prisoners are in private prisons, how does that affect their influence on incarceration as a policy? If that rate is different in various states, can you connect the differences with the kind of policy influence you expect to find? That's legwork. That's investigative reporting. Anyone who would like to see significant prison reform deserves, and needs, much better than this. If this were truly a reflection of the prison reform movement's best arguments, it's small wonder it's not having much success.
- testrun 11y ago
  I agree hundred percent. A very bad piece that does not clarify or enlighten.
aaron695 11y ago
Pretty clickbaity. It's just '5 things wrong with the private prison industry' All of them are pretty well known possible issues. I certainly don't know anyone who thinks the 'myth' is true, some people at best might be 'I don't know' or 'I'm pretty sure it's complicated.'
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
blipblitz 11y ago
For more: https://www.muckrock.com/project/the-private-prison-project-8/ https://www.muckrock.com/project/the-private-prison-project-...

35 points by allanlasser 11y ago

I know someone who stayed in a GEO prison. Based on everything I heard about it, I have to imagine that there's some mid-level accountant who knows exactly, down to the penny, how much money they make per inmate per day. One example: when you're given a spork with your first meal, you might think that was the spork for just that meal, and toss it out with your meal tray. Wrong move. That was your prison-issue spork. Enjoy eating with your hands for the remainder of your incarceration.

hugh4 11y ago
That gives me an idea: prison vouchers. Give each prisoner a voucher for a certain amount and let them choose where they want to serve out their sentence. Prisons will compete to offer tolerably humane conditions to inmates while still keeping under budget. (Prison escapes will be punished by huge fines so there's no incentive to cheap out on security.) Flaws with this system: do prisons have to take a given inmate? If not, there will be troublesome inmates nobody is willing to imprison. If so, there will be a lot of incentives to try to get rid of these troublesome prisoners as soon as they arrive. Also, there's potential for cosy arrangements between gangs and prison operators to direct business towards them in exchange for favourable treatment.
- risk 11y ago
  I'd like to ignore everything you ever do on this website hereinafter. Is there a feature for that?
- PebblesHD 11y ago
  And now I can't stop imagining how a free market economy for prisons would work out. Fascinating thought, especially in relation to the idea of gangs using the system in such a way! EDIT: I wonder what would happen the the idea of jurisdiction under such a system, would prisons within a certain locality get preference or would it be nation wide?
- marcoperaza 11y ago
  You're not supposed to like prison. It's a punishment for serious misdeeds. If your suggestion was implemented, the result would be despicable. Prisons would be competing to have the most plush accommodations. The guy who was raping little kids in his van shouldn't serve his time in a nice hotel.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > It's a punishment for serious misdeeds. That's one view. The other is that prisons are for correction and rehabilitation.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - pascalmemories 11y ago
    > The guy who was raping little kids in his van shouldn't serve his time in a nice hotel And there's a myth about prison right there. Spoken by someone who clearly has no idea how horrible prisons really are. And how dangerous and deadly they are for anyone even accused of offenses against children.
    - marcoperaza 11y ago
      I'm talking about hugh4's suggestion for "prison choice" with vouchers. I said nothing at all about the current prison system.
  - zeveb 11y ago
    > The guy who was raping little kids in his van shouldn't serve his time in a nice hotel. He shouldn't live, period: he should go straight from the jail where he was waiting trial, to the gallows. Prison should be for those who are bad enough to remove from society for a time, but not bad enough to execute; and since they will be returned to society, we should try to make sure that when they re-enter it they do so as productive, mentally-well members of society, rather than as beaten, brutalised future recidivists.
- nevdka 11y ago
  The ultimate goal of prisons is (or should be) to reduce crime. Why not directly incentivise prisons to reduce recidivism? Pay big bonuses if the ex-inmates aren't arrested/convicted/etc in the 3-5 years after they're released.
  - hugh4 11y ago
    Yes, that's probably a better way of aligning incentives. Plus it could be trialled on a small scale at first with just a few prisons. The main thing you'd need to watch out for is that prisons didnt just start working hard to offload their worst prisoners elsewhere.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - dalke 11y ago
    Or use the money that would go to such a system and instead direct it towards increased social services, to help reduce the number of people who commit crimes and enter the prison system in the first place.
- anonbanker 11y ago
  I laughed really hard at this post. I've long compared schools to prisons, but never with this much flair. People thought you were serious, to the point of wanting to ignore your future posts. That's some good satire right there. kudos to you, sir.
- Jordrok 11y ago
  ...I think this is satire... Right? Poe's Law is really kicking my ass here. The fact that it's so hard to tell is the scary part. In any case, I alternately applaud/decry this hilarious/appalling idea.
  - hugh4 11y ago
    C'mon man, I at least critiqued my own wild-ass idea, you can do the same instead of dismissing it.

jacquesm 11y ago

> American correctional standards have been a sort of standard for policing and punishment abroad I don't see much support for that statement, fortunately. There may be countries for which this is true but for the vast majority of countries in the developed world this is not the case.

Broken_Hippo 11y ago
Not only that, but some country's citizens would be appalled if their prison system started mimicking the American system.

rcurry 11y ago

I really don't think prisons should be run by private corporations. I was already kind of leery about it, but the whole "kids for cash" scandal in Pennsylvania was the last straw. There's no way I can be convinced that we can ever trust a for-profit corporation to manage a prison. There are just too many opportunities for corruption.

nosuchthing 11y ago
They speak roughly once a week in a 15-minute phone call, and speak for another 25 minutes on a video chat. Jones says she’d travel to Texas to visit her son in person, but Hays County Jail, where he is locked up, banned visitations in November 2013. That happened shortly after the county jail entered into a contract with Securus. Since then, all family communication with inmates at Hays County goes through Securus, which charges Jones about $10 for a phone call and about $8 for a video visit. http://atavist.ibtimes.com/fcc-prison-telecom-industry http://atavist.ibtimes.com/fcc-prison-telecom-industry
- orangecat 11y ago
  See also http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/10/inmate-calling-companies-sock-prisoners-families-with-endless-fees/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/10/inmate-calling-compa... Apparently a large amount of those fees are paid back to the prisons via "commissions", so it's basically governments auctioning off the right to take advantage of prisoners and their families.
  - mindslight 11y ago
    It's essentially the same thing that has happened across many other areas of the economy - it's impractical to own slaves, so they're rented instead.
chimeracoder 11y ago
The problem is that state-funded prisons have the same potential for corruption. The unions that represent the correctional officers play the same role and lobby for the same laws as the private prions do. The CCOA even lists marijuana legalization as a potential risk factor that could impact their future financial targets: > Our ability to secure new contracts to develop and manage correctional and detention facilities depends on many factors outside our control. Our growth is generally dependent upon our ability to obtain new contracts to develop and manage new correctional and detention facilities. This possible growth depends on a number of factors we cannot control, including crime rates and sentencing patterns in various jurisdictions and acceptance of privatization. The demand for our facilities and services could be adversely affected by the relaxation of enforcement efforts, leniency in conviction and sentencing practices or through the decriminalization of certain activities that are currently proscribed by our criminal laws. For instance, any changes with respect to drugs and controlled substances or illegal immigration could affect the number of persons arrested, convicted, and sentenced, thereby potentially reducing demand for correctional facilities to house them. Legislation has been proposed in numerous jurisdictions that could lower minimum sentences for some non-violent crimes and make more inmates eligible for early release based on good behavior. Also, sentencing alternatives under consideration could put some offenders on probation with electronic monitoring who would otherwise be incarcerated. Similarly, reductions in crime rates could lead to reductions in arrests, convictions and sentences requiring incarceration at correctional facilities. http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1070985/000095014406001892/g99938e10vk.htm http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1070985/0000950144060...

fredkbloggs 11y ago

While I'm not sympathetic to prison operators or the mass-incarceration system in general, this is a weak article with little substance. Declaring an assertion to be myth requires a substantial investment in disproving it. Indeed, there is not a single fact presented in opposition to what is perhaps the most important myth #1. It is possible (or damned well ought to be, and if it isn't, then that's a cause of action by itself) to account for exactly what the government and inmates are paying. Someone who makes a concerted effort to figure out what that is would be a top-notch investigative reporter. Someone who writes "Does anyone actually have proof of this? Seriously, is anyone sure that this happens?" is either ranting or a hack. When you write an article asserting that a political opponent's views are myths, you take on the burden of proof. Simply asserting (without even a reference) that no one has proven the opposite doesn't cut it, even if that's true. There are similar problems with the other "myths", such as attempting to rebut the notion that private prison operations have limited influence by showing a graph of private prison populations (one that, I might add, doesn't exactly bolster the case). So what? If 8% (or 20% or X%) of prisoners are in private prisons, how does that affect their influence on incarceration as a policy? If that rate is different in various states, can you connect the differences with the kind of policy influence you expect to find? That's legwork. That's investigative reporting. Anyone who would like to see significant prison reform deserves, and needs, much better than this. If this were truly a reflection of the prison reform movement's best arguments, it's small wonder it's not having much success.

testrun 11y ago
I agree hundred percent. A very bad piece that does not clarify or enlighten.

aaron695 11y ago

Pretty clickbaity. It's just '5 things wrong with the private prison industry' All of them are pretty well known possible issues. I certainly don't know anyone who thinks the 'myth' is true, some people at best might be 'I don't know' or 'I'm pretty sure it's complicated.'

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

blipblitz 11y ago

For more: https://www.muckrock.com/project/the-private-prison-project-8/ https://www.muckrock.com/project/the-private-prison-project-...