7 ms·

Emphasis on the phrase "culture fit" tends to go hand in hand with cultural and racial homogeneity in my experience, too. It's interesting how many red flags a

Emphasis on the phrase "culture fit" tends to go hand in hand with cultural and racial homogeneity in my experience, too. It's interesting how many red flags a company can throw up so quickly. Often before you've even finished browsing their website.

res0nat0r 11y ago
I think "culture fit" here is a replacement for: "He isn't young and single and probably has a family, therefore he won't want to work 70 hours a week and stay in our awesome fully stocked with free soda and snacks office 24/7 and instead actually go home after normal work hours, and we can't have that."
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  Yeah, that too. It seems to function as a placeholder for any reason the interviewer might be ashamed to admit in polite company.
driverdan 11y ago
Not all companies are like that. We put a huge emphasis on culture fit but it's nothing like what you suggest. We've gotten far more diverse as we've grown.
- abduhl 11y ago
  What is your definition of culture fit then? Be specific about traits which are indicative of a good or bad culture fit for your team/company in particular.
  - x0x0 11y ago
    Is this person going to be goddamn annoying to be around 40-45 hours a week? (Oh, how this has happened.) Does this non-medical phd demand to be addressed as doctor? (Yes, this happened.) Does he or she seem willing to do his or her share of the scut work? Is he or she a failed academic who is getting an industry job and going to be a pain about it, or is this what he or she wants to do? How much supervision does the candidate require? Initiative? If he or she runs out of work, is he or she going to to sit there and do fuck-all until I notice or will the candidate be proactive about getting more to do? I understand some of our code is under tested, but unlike TDD wankery, there is a real business cost to spending a bunch of time writing tests and, since those systems are either mostly finished / slowly changing, or on their way out, is this candidate going to be difficult or suck it up and deal? (Yes, this happened. See also scut work and/or the realities of living in our fallen world.) We've made a decision to standardize on scala/java and js/some frontend package I'm not sure of. I understand this isn't react or the new hotness; does this candidate seem like he or she will throw a fit then spend two months working on a service in a language nobody else uses (yes, this happened. And he was surprised when he was terminated. There were other issues but this was the proverbial straw.) Hygiene. This should go without saying, but apparently I am cursed. If I can smell you in an interview, we're done. (And yes, this has happened.) One more set of edits as the bad memories come back: You look at my two female data scientists and a female engineering peer and the one female office manager and ask why there are so many secretaries working here? Yes, this happened. You call one of my female directs "sweetie." Yes, this happened. We're talking on the phone and you couldn't be arsed to spend 10 minutes on our site and come up with a 1-2 sentence summary of what the company does. You can be wrong, but you must demonstrate minimal interest. And to be clear about the level of detail: if I were airbnb and you said platform to allow people to rent out their homes for short stays, that would be awesome.
    - protomyth 11y ago
      I don't think any from that list is really cultural. They range from basic professional behavior to basic polite society behavior. I've run into people with the hygiene part. I've dealt with farmers who have just dealt with their pigs that smelled better than some folks I've encountered. Also, "sweetie", really? When I was younger (teens) I offended someone by saying "Ma'am"[1], but I'm pretty sure I would have took a swat to the head from my parents if I ever said "sweetie". 1) I'm pretty sure at this late date (20+ years ago), she was a bit ticked that I used "Ma'am" instead of "Miss" implying she was older than she was. I'm pretty sure she was between 18 and 20, and I was 15 and looked a lot older.
      - x0x0 11y ago
        Professional and polite behavior is cultural fit :) Or at least the working definition at this and previous employers where I've been a hiring manager.
      - crdoconnor 11y ago
        >I don't think any from that list is really cultural It looks to me like a laundry list of requirements that they wouldn't admit in polite company or want to have documented in their company records, or advertise on their website. They wouldn't want to put off any investors with bad breath, a PhD, or a penchant for saying 'sweetie', after all. Also, one of the items clearly advertises an objective deficiency in their working practices. It's pretty plain why they'd want to keep that under wraps. So yea, less about culture and more about having a list of hidden requirements.
    - nommm-nommm 11y ago
      > Does this non-medical phd demand to be addressed as doctor? (Yes, this happened.) WTF is wrong with that!?!? It is polite to address someone the way they want to be addressed. I address my PhD holding colleagues as Dr. very often though none are medical doctors. I can't imagine how this is an issue for anyone ever.
      - x0x0 11y ago
Shivetya 11y ago
fit the culture is just pc phrasing to dodge hiring issues. its a cover, nothing more. some people saying it may believe it to be a true concern but its just code for "we don't want your type"
zo1 11y ago
Indeed, I find it a big red flag when I hear mention of "efforts" to reduce homogeneity. Frankly, any mention of any "social engineering" terms is a big red flag for me. The only thing that matters is professionalism, work-ethic, and skillset (and my personal favorites, politeness and personal-space respect). Age, race, gender, nationality should not matter in any way for hiring decisions. But then again, I fall into the "leave it be" side of human freedom and anti-discrimination efforts, rather than the "let's meddle and try fix it with reverse-effects" camp.
- panglott 11y ago
  People who are all alike tend to have the same blindspots. If you have a group with different POVs, they can more easily catch things that others might miss. Race/gender/age/&c.-related blind spots may be more important in some domains than others, but these blind spots are very salient in a wide variety of places in American life.
seivan 11y ago
Focus on cultural and racial diversity in my experience tend ignore age as part of diversity. Lets not pretend 'they' would actually give a fuck about older developers. Here is a "diversity team" http://diversify.github.io/images/diversify-group.jpg http://diversify.github.io/images/diversify-group.jpg Beware of hypocrites abusing "diversity" for PR reasons.
- Timothee 11y ago
  I was a bit shocked by that photo until I went to the page itself at http://diversify.github.io/ http://diversify.github.io/ and read: > Diversify was a weekend event at Spotify in Stockholm, where 40 tech students of diverse backgrounds came together and designed, wrote code, and found new friends. Maybe having students to this is in part pointless, but that picture is not of a group of Spotify employees working on diversity issues.

res0nat0r 11y ago

I think "culture fit" here is a replacement for: "He isn't young and single and probably has a family, therefore he won't want to work 70 hours a week and stay in our awesome fully stocked with free soda and snacks office 24/7 and instead actually go home after normal work hours, and we can't have that."

crdoconnor 11y ago
Yeah, that too. It seems to function as a placeholder for any reason the interviewer might be ashamed to admit in polite company.

driverdan 11y ago

Not all companies are like that. We put a huge emphasis on culture fit but it's nothing like what you suggest. We've gotten far more diverse as we've grown.

abduhl 11y ago
What is your definition of culture fit then? Be specific about traits which are indicative of a good or bad culture fit for your team/company in particular.
- x0x0 11y ago
  Is this person going to be goddamn annoying to be around 40-45 hours a week? (Oh, how this has happened.) Does this non-medical phd demand to be addressed as doctor? (Yes, this happened.) Does he or she seem willing to do his or her share of the scut work? Is he or she a failed academic who is getting an industry job and going to be a pain about it, or is this what he or she wants to do? How much supervision does the candidate require? Initiative? If he or she runs out of work, is he or she going to to sit there and do fuck-all until I notice or will the candidate be proactive about getting more to do? I understand some of our code is under tested, but unlike TDD wankery, there is a real business cost to spending a bunch of time writing tests and, since those systems are either mostly finished / slowly changing, or on their way out, is this candidate going to be difficult or suck it up and deal? (Yes, this happened. See also scut work and/or the realities of living in our fallen world.) We've made a decision to standardize on scala/java and js/some frontend package I'm not sure of. I understand this isn't react or the new hotness; does this candidate seem like he or she will throw a fit then spend two months working on a service in a language nobody else uses (yes, this happened. And he was surprised when he was terminated. There were other issues but this was the proverbial straw.) Hygiene. This should go without saying, but apparently I am cursed. If I can smell you in an interview, we're done. (And yes, this has happened.) One more set of edits as the bad memories come back: You look at my two female data scientists and a female engineering peer and the one female office manager and ask why there are so many secretaries working here? Yes, this happened. You call one of my female directs "sweetie." Yes, this happened. We're talking on the phone and you couldn't be arsed to spend 10 minutes on our site and come up with a 1-2 sentence summary of what the company does. You can be wrong, but you must demonstrate minimal interest. And to be clear about the level of detail: if I were airbnb and you said platform to allow people to rent out their homes for short stays, that would be awesome.
  - protomyth 11y ago
    I don't think any from that list is really cultural. They range from basic professional behavior to basic polite society behavior. I've run into people with the hygiene part. I've dealt with farmers who have just dealt with their pigs that smelled better than some folks I've encountered. Also, "sweetie", really? When I was younger (teens) I offended someone by saying "Ma'am"[1], but I'm pretty sure I would have took a swat to the head from my parents if I ever said "sweetie". 1) I'm pretty sure at this late date (20+ years ago), she was a bit ticked that I used "Ma'am" instead of "Miss" implying she was older than she was. I'm pretty sure she was between 18 and 20, and I was 15 and looked a lot older.
    - x0x0 11y ago
      Professional and polite behavior is cultural fit :) Or at least the working definition at this and previous employers where I've been a hiring manager.
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      >I don't think any from that list is really cultural It looks to me like a laundry list of requirements that they wouldn't admit in polite company or want to have documented in their company records, or advertise on their website. They wouldn't want to put off any investors with bad breath, a PhD, or a penchant for saying 'sweetie', after all. Also, one of the items clearly advertises an objective deficiency in their working practices. It's pretty plain why they'd want to keep that under wraps. So yea, less about culture and more about having a list of hidden requirements.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    > Does this non-medical phd demand to be addressed as doctor? (Yes, this happened.) WTF is wrong with that!?!? It is polite to address someone the way they want to be addressed. I address my PhD holding colleagues as Dr. very often though none are medical doctors. I can't imagine how this is an issue for anyone ever.
    - x0x0 11y ago

Shivetya 11y ago

fit the culture is just pc phrasing to dodge hiring issues. its a cover, nothing more. some people saying it may believe it to be a true concern but its just code for "we don't want your type"

zo1 11y ago

Indeed, I find it a big red flag when I hear mention of "efforts" to reduce homogeneity. Frankly, any mention of any "social engineering" terms is a big red flag for me. The only thing that matters is professionalism, work-ethic, and skillset (and my personal favorites, politeness and personal-space respect). Age, race, gender, nationality should not matter in any way for hiring decisions. But then again, I fall into the "leave it be" side of human freedom and anti-discrimination efforts, rather than the "let's meddle and try fix it with reverse-effects" camp.

panglott 11y ago
People who are all alike tend to have the same blindspots. If you have a group with different POVs, they can more easily catch things that others might miss. Race/gender/age/&c.-related blind spots may be more important in some domains than others, but these blind spots are very salient in a wide variety of places in American life.

seivan 11y ago

Focus on cultural and racial diversity in my experience tend ignore age as part of diversity. Lets not pretend 'they' would actually give a fuck about older developers. Here is a "diversity team" http://diversify.github.io/images/diversify-group.jpg http://diversify.github.io/images/diversify-group.jpg Beware of hypocrites abusing "diversity" for PR reasons.

Timothee 11y ago
I was a bit shocked by that photo until I went to the page itself at http://diversify.github.io/ http://diversify.github.io/ and read: > Diversify was a weekend event at Spotify in Stockholm, where 40 tech students of diverse backgrounds came together and designed, wrote code, and found new friends. Maybe having students to this is in part pointless, but that picture is not of a group of Spotify employees working on diversity issues.