4 ms·

> I'm pretty sure that is basically the definition of age discrimination people are facing. Age discrimination is based on a fact you can't do anything about,

by lemevi 11y ago

> I'm pretty sure that is basically the definition of age discrimination people are facing. Age discrimination is based on a fact you can't do anything about, your age. A company's culture is very important, a vital aspect of its identity. If you aren't open to making a change then you probably don't belong. Anyway, a lot of things people my age and older like are just the things 20 year olds liked when they were 20.

protomyth 11y ago
Let's review a second so I can understand something, how does "I enjoy the same things my peers do, we play the same games, we watch the same things and read the same websites." equal a company's culture? The HP Way is a company culture, what you describe is a social club.
- usefulcat 11y ago
  Many companies--especially tech companies--deliberately blur the line between those two things.
  - protomyth 11y ago
    I'm starting to get that. They don't seem to want a company cultural. It really seems like they want a posse or fraternity. When you look at it that way, of course anyone outside a very narrow demographic is unacceptable. Why does the image of a party of wizards that forgot to bring the fighters, clerics, and rogues come to my head?
Retric 11y ago
Bull, if you can't get along with a wide range of people then you have a problem. I get the nerd stereotype of awkward introvert, but we, as working adults, need to deal with it.
potatolicious 11y ago
> "A company's culture is very important, a vital aspect of its identity." Is everyone being super-stoked about Star Wars and Breaking Bad really a vital aspect of a company's identity? Is a shared passion for ping-pong over lunchtime really an important part of a company's continued success? In my personal experience, I've learned a huge amount from coworkers with whom I had very little in common besides the shared dedication to shipping great product. Here's my challenge to everyone on HN - "culture fit" isn't intrinsically a bad thing, but the term is vague and encourages all kinds of intellectually dishonest cowardice. Stop using "culture fit" and instead use specific observations. "This person has poor hygiene" is a valid observation, "This person defended some really bad code despite reasonable criticism", "This person was openly hostile to one of the interviewers", etc. "Culture fit" is a weasel word that is vague - sometimes intentionally so - and largely useless. Specify why someone is a bad culture fit with concrete observations. And hey, sometimes when you are specific to yourself you'll find problems in your own thinking (e.g., "This person totally glazed over at the pop culture references I made." doesn't even begin to pass a sanity check, but accounts for a lot of "bad culture fit" decisions).
- lemevi 11y ago
  > Is everyone being super-stoked about Star Wars and Breaking Bad really a vital aspect of a company's identity? Is a shared passion for ping-pong over lunchtime really an important part of a company's continued success? This is a different argument than one about age discrimination. Whatever the culture a company and its employees adopt, my point is that it isn't necessarily age discrimination if you are getting the "not a good culture fit" feedback. It's not the number of years you've been alive so much as an attitude, which is something you can change. If you're unwilling to, fine. If this makes you mad, I'm sorry. However your emotions sway you, it is still not age discrimination.
  - shepwalker 11y ago
    But depending on how stringent your bounding box for "culture fit" is, you end up building an archetype for age, gender, education and ethnicity of your target employee. The point is is that if you're targeting people who behave like you, have plenty of shared interests and reflect your own way of doing things, those people are going to end up looking a lot like you too. I think the point that potatolicious is trying to make is that the ambiguity of "cultural fit" ends up becoming a path to hiring people who are very similar to yourself. An alternative approach would be to define explicit, concrete values that your company and team reflect, and look for hires that mirror those values instead of nebulous "cultural" fit.
gnaritas 11y ago
Culture fit is often just a euphemism for "we don't like you for a reason that would be illegal to state directly due to discrimination laws". A reason such as you're too old.
- tomp 11y ago
  When did you ever have a company state any reason for not hiring you?
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    I could have worded that better, it's not what's stated to you, it's what people say when they talk about not hiring someone to other people they know, such as those talking about it on this board now. It's a nice little lie people tell to avoid admitting discrimination of some sort.

by lemevi 11y ago

protomyth 11y ago

Let's review a second so I can understand something, how does "I enjoy the same things my peers do, we play the same games, we watch the same things and read the same websites." equal a company's culture? The HP Way is a company culture, what you describe is a social club.

usefulcat 11y ago
Many companies--especially tech companies--deliberately blur the line between those two things.
- protomyth 11y ago
  I'm starting to get that. They don't seem to want a company cultural. It really seems like they want a posse or fraternity. When you look at it that way, of course anyone outside a very narrow demographic is unacceptable. Why does the image of a party of wizards that forgot to bring the fighters, clerics, and rogues come to my head?

Retric 11y ago

Bull, if you can't get along with a wide range of people then you have a problem. I get the nerd stereotype of awkward introvert, but we, as working adults, need to deal with it.

potatolicious 11y ago

> "A company's culture is very important, a vital aspect of its identity." Is everyone being super-stoked about Star Wars and Breaking Bad really a vital aspect of a company's identity? Is a shared passion for ping-pong over lunchtime really an important part of a company's continued success? In my personal experience, I've learned a huge amount from coworkers with whom I had very little in common besides the shared dedication to shipping great product. Here's my challenge to everyone on HN - "culture fit" isn't intrinsically a bad thing, but the term is vague and encourages all kinds of intellectually dishonest cowardice. Stop using "culture fit" and instead use specific observations. "This person has poor hygiene" is a valid observation, "This person defended some really bad code despite reasonable criticism", "This person was openly hostile to one of the interviewers", etc. "Culture fit" is a weasel word that is vague - sometimes intentionally so - and largely useless. Specify why someone is a bad culture fit with concrete observations. And hey, sometimes when you are specific to yourself you'll find problems in your own thinking (e.g., "This person totally glazed over at the pop culture references I made." doesn't even begin to pass a sanity check, but accounts for a lot of "bad culture fit" decisions).

lemevi 11y ago
> Is everyone being super-stoked about Star Wars and Breaking Bad really a vital aspect of a company's identity? Is a shared passion for ping-pong over lunchtime really an important part of a company's continued success? This is a different argument than one about age discrimination. Whatever the culture a company and its employees adopt, my point is that it isn't necessarily age discrimination if you are getting the "not a good culture fit" feedback. It's not the number of years you've been alive so much as an attitude, which is something you can change. If you're unwilling to, fine. If this makes you mad, I'm sorry. However your emotions sway you, it is still not age discrimination.
- shepwalker 11y ago
  But depending on how stringent your bounding box for "culture fit" is, you end up building an archetype for age, gender, education and ethnicity of your target employee. The point is is that if you're targeting people who behave like you, have plenty of shared interests and reflect your own way of doing things, those people are going to end up looking a lot like you too. I think the point that potatolicious is trying to make is that the ambiguity of "cultural fit" ends up becoming a path to hiring people who are very similar to yourself. An alternative approach would be to define explicit, concrete values that your company and team reflect, and look for hires that mirror those values instead of nebulous "cultural" fit.

gnaritas 11y ago

Culture fit is often just a euphemism for "we don't like you for a reason that would be illegal to state directly due to discrimination laws". A reason such as you're too old.

tomp 11y ago
When did you ever have a company state any reason for not hiring you?
- gnaritas 11y ago
  I could have worded that better, it's not what's stated to you, it's what people say when they talk about not hiring someone to other people they know, such as those talking about it on this board now. It's a nice little lie people tell to avoid admitting discrimination of some sort.