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I recently quit Amazon. I don't doubt that New York Times purposely misrepresented or omitted facts to make this story. Their stories tend to be very agenda dr

I recently quit Amazon. I don't doubt that New York Times purposely misrepresented or omitted facts to make this story. Their stories tend to be very agenda driven and the facts tend to be subservient to the narrative, a policy which is deemed acceptable because it "starts a conversation" or the story is "probably true for someone". This is typical of the left wing. However, I did in fact have an absolutely awful experience at Amazon, in AWS specifically. It really is an awful place to work where management is entirely ego driven and in cover your ass mode 24/7 to the supreme detriment of everyone involved. Subordinates are seen as drones who should work without appreciation or thought for self. And the idea that subordinates are not drones is considered un-Amazonian. I did in fact witness someone cry at their desk. Well, they didn't cry, it was more like they were in an emotionally precarious daze after being berated for 30 minutes straight by a manager who only did it to make himself feel better about his own worries about the project.

boxy310 11y ago
In a lot of ways Amazon reminds me of Wal-mart, both from the market space they occupy and how terribly they treat employees. I think this is really a byproduct of chasing after low costs without other substantial service improvements. At least with Uber you get a legitimately better hailing and payment experience, not just being cheaper.
- et2o 11y ago
  Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Amazon offers pretty substantial service improvement from just about any other online retailer. $50/year for unlimited 1-day shipping?
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    From Amazon. So, $50 fixed shipping cost from Amazon, whether you use that much or not.
  - jazzyk 11y ago
    Prime is $99/year for two day free shipping.
    - pacificmint 11y ago
      Maybe GP is in another country? What he mentions sounds very much like Prime in Germany for example (50 euros, free next day delivery).
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > $50/year for unlimited 1-day shipping? Would be cool, but they don't offer that to the public; the closest thing to that seems to be Amazon Prime Student, which is obly available to students (as the name suggesets) and is $49/yr for unlimited 2-day shipping of Prime-eligible items, and same-day (or one-day, depending on timing) shipping of a narrower selection of items in a narrow set of geographic locations with a $35 per order minimum. The equivalent, more generally available thing is Amazon Prime, which is $99/yr (same restrictions apply to Prime eligible items, same-day/one-day-eligible items, and same-day/one-day delivery areas.)
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    Not really, at least with higher tier retailers.. Amazon is charging more for product, and with Prime you're really paying for prioritization. Amazon builds warehouses all over the place to avoid air shipping, but optimizes it's internal fulfillment to the prioritized customers. So you either buy Prime (ie. the online version of a warehouse club) or wait 3-5 days for Amazon to sit on your order, pre-sort it and send it out UPS Ground or Parcel Post, just like they do with prime. I live in New York. If I order from Newegg or WalMart, they typically ship from New Jersey or Philadelphia. That's a 1-2 day UPS Ground shipping zone. Sometimes I pay some nominal amount for shipping, but the product typically costs substantially less from Newegg or Walmart than Amazon. Amazon is superior to smaller ecommerce operations. My wife orders swimsuits from a vendor in Texas without a distribution network. So she pays about 50% of retail UPS ground charges, and waits a day for the retailer to pick the product, then 3-5 business days for her suit to take a train to Chicago, another train to Syracuse, and then a truck to our home in Albany.
forgotpasswd3x 11y ago
> Their stories tend to be very agenda driven and the facts tend to be subservient to the narrative, a policy which is deemed acceptable because it "starts a conversation" or the story is "probably true for someone". This is typical of the left wing. This is hardly an issue isolated to "left wing" media.
- itbeho 11y ago
  I agree. But what percentage of the media would you consider "left wing"? Or "right wing"?
- afsina 11y ago
  To be fair, when it comes to attacking corporations (biased or not) , this is mostly a left wing media thing.
  - cruise02 11y ago
    And when it comes to supporting corporations (biased or not), this is mostly a right wing media thing. Just because they do it from opposing sides doesn't make it ok.
swehner 11y ago
Calling the NYT left-wing is pretty amusing.
- benten10 11y ago
  s/he meant "relatively left-wing (from my perspective)", implying his position is to the right of wherever NYT may be.
- Nadya 11y ago
  Thinking the NYT isn't left-wing shows more how far left you must stand. Even the NYT calls itself liberal/left. Even after 11 years - and as an independent - I see the NYT as decidedly left. >“Of course it is....These are the social issues: gay rights, gun control, abortion and environmental regulation, among others. And if you think The Times plays it down the middle on any of them, you’ve been reading the paper with your eyes closed.” — New York Times Public Editor Daniel Okrent in a July 25, 2004 column which appeared under a headline asking, “Is The New York Times a Liberal Newspaper?” [0] >Some conservative critics of the media say liberal bias exists within a wide variety of media channels, especially within the "Main Stream Media", including network news shows of CBS, ABC, and NBC, cable channels CNN, MSNBC and the former Current TV, as well as major newspapers, news-wires, and radio outlets, especially CBS News, Newsweek, and The New York Times. [1] [0] http://archive.mrc.org/biasbasics/biasbasics2.asp http://archive.mrc.org/biasbasics/biasbasics2.asp [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_bias_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_bias_in_the_United_State... E: So I'm being downvoted for pointing out that a liberal newspaper calls itself liberal? Next thing I know I'll be getting downvoted for calling Trump a right-wing presidential candidate.
  - benten10 11y ago
    >So I'm being downvoted for pointing out that a liberal newspaper calls itself liberal? Next thing I know I'll be getting downvoted for calling Trump a right-wing presidential candidate. I can't downvote, but I assume you're being downvoted for calling a relatively centrist paper left-wing. Perhaps if you'd said 'liberal'/'left-leaning', the downvotes would have been lesser? Who, in your opinion, is a centrist-ish paper in the US?
ska 11y ago
Not sure if you are aware of this, but statements like: "This is typical of the left wing." Can at best undermine whatever point you are trying to make.
- hnamazon123 11y ago
  That was in fact a point I was making. Journalists lying to support a narrative is an extremely damaging trend that has taken hold on the left and it should be pointed out whenever it happens. This of course happens on the right but it is not moralized or justified in the same way.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Journalists lying to support a narrative is an extremely damaging trend "Trend" implies a kind of special currency for which I see no evidence; its a "trend" as old as journalism itself. But, yes, its a bad thing. > that has taken hold on the left I see no evidence that this is particularly true such that claiming it is a trait of the left, rather than a common feature not especially associated with the left, is anything but a dishonest distortion to support a narrative. > This of course happens on the right Indeed. > but it is not moralized or justified in the same way. The claim that there is some significant difference here that is worthy of attention desperately could use some support.
  - cthalupa 11y ago
    He's saying that your detour into politics is damaging to your narrative.
  - ska 11y ago
    That was in fact a point I was making. You may have chased a point there but you failed to make it. In practice almost all such statements (I do not differentiate the style of partisanship) are some combination of disingenuous, lazy, or unintelligent. They are far too broad a brush to be on point, and far too divisive to use unadvisedly. So much so that there is a vanishingly small chance that the addition of such a statement was both necessary to your point, and improves your clarity of argument. If your intent is intelligent discourse, compelling argument, or even just getting your opinion across clearly then use of this sort of language is actively counter to your purpose. Other aims exist, clearly.
Random_BSD_Geek 11y ago
Long before the NYT article came out I had been hearing stories like this from ex-Amazon employees. This is only anecdotal evidence, but it's the same basic anecdote again and again. The NYT article may be many sensationalized and the characters in it may not be ideal people, but the story's core message is one I've heard from a diverse set of people in a diverse set of circumstances. There seems to be a kernel of truth in there.
hnexamazon 11y ago
I also recently quit Amazon. I also worked within AWS. However, I absolutely loved it, and had the complete opposite experience to almost everything you are describing. My reasons for leaving had absolutely nothing to do with Amazon, and I would work there again. My bosses were excellent and cared deeply about my personal and professional development. I never got the impression that I was viewed as a drone. I have nothing but respect for the members of upper management that I met, who came off as smart, driven, and truly passionate about their work. I had worked at a few other companies before joining Amazon, and what I found most refreshing was that, even when I was an SDEI, my opinion about the direction of the team and the projects we were working on was sought and valued. I had never experienced that before at previous employers, where I was very much a "drone". However, AWS does promote a blunt culture where direct feedback is encouraged. Having never been encouraged at previous employers to provide thoughts on high level design and strategic roadmap decisions before, the ideas I would present would often times be suboptimal, and a senior dev would be quick to point out the flaws in my approach. Let me be clear, however, that it was always the IDEA that was attacked and never ME, personally. I found this approach incredibly helpful in my journey to become a better software engineer. I got along incredibly well with my colleagues and at no point did I ever not feel like a respected and valued member of the team. I am willing to concede that I was fortunate to have very good direct managers during my time at AWS, and while members of other teams around me also reported similar contentment when I talked to them, I did notice a team or two whose direct managers did not seem up to the task. I firmly believe your experience with a company is at least 80% your direct manager, and if I was reporting to one of those managers that I did not respect I would probably be telling a different story. This is all to say, I believe you when you say you had a terrible experience, but I wanted to balance your negative anecdote with my positive one.
- hnamazon123 11y ago
  That's cool, I'm glad you had a good experience. Would have been great if things had worked out differently because the project I was working on was extremely cool.
inopinatus 11y ago
I am also ex-AWS and frankly your description of the environment is the opposite of my experience. My experience was one of driven, hardworking, high-octane people working with a collegiate respect for one another under thoughtful, nuanced leadership. Was it hard work? Check. 10-12hr days were my norm. They still are, now I'm a startup. Is it a polarising workplace? Check. That internal culture is a strong flavour. And like many strong flavours, you'll either love it or hate it. If I wasn't building something I felt compelled to create, I'd go back there in a heartbeat.

boxy310 11y ago

In a lot of ways Amazon reminds me of Wal-mart, both from the market space they occupy and how terribly they treat employees. I think this is really a byproduct of chasing after low costs without other substantial service improvements. At least with Uber you get a legitimately better hailing and payment experience, not just being cheaper.

et2o 11y ago
Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Amazon offers pretty substantial service improvement from just about any other online retailer. $50/year for unlimited 1-day shipping?
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  From Amazon. So, $50 fixed shipping cost from Amazon, whether you use that much or not.
- jazzyk 11y ago
  Prime is $99/year for two day free shipping.
  - pacificmint 11y ago
    Maybe GP is in another country? What he mentions sounds very much like Prime in Germany for example (50 euros, free next day delivery).
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > $50/year for unlimited 1-day shipping? Would be cool, but they don't offer that to the public; the closest thing to that seems to be Amazon Prime Student, which is obly available to students (as the name suggesets) and is $49/yr for unlimited 2-day shipping of Prime-eligible items, and same-day (or one-day, depending on timing) shipping of a narrower selection of items in a narrow set of geographic locations with a $35 per order minimum. The equivalent, more generally available thing is Amazon Prime, which is $99/yr (same restrictions apply to Prime eligible items, same-day/one-day-eligible items, and same-day/one-day delivery areas.)
- Spooky23 11y ago
  Not really, at least with higher tier retailers.. Amazon is charging more for product, and with Prime you're really paying for prioritization. Amazon builds warehouses all over the place to avoid air shipping, but optimizes it's internal fulfillment to the prioritized customers. So you either buy Prime (ie. the online version of a warehouse club) or wait 3-5 days for Amazon to sit on your order, pre-sort it and send it out UPS Ground or Parcel Post, just like they do with prime. I live in New York. If I order from Newegg or WalMart, they typically ship from New Jersey or Philadelphia. That's a 1-2 day UPS Ground shipping zone. Sometimes I pay some nominal amount for shipping, but the product typically costs substantially less from Newegg or Walmart than Amazon. Amazon is superior to smaller ecommerce operations. My wife orders swimsuits from a vendor in Texas without a distribution network. So she pays about 50% of retail UPS ground charges, and waits a day for the retailer to pick the product, then 3-5 business days for her suit to take a train to Chicago, another train to Syracuse, and then a truck to our home in Albany.

forgotpasswd3x 11y ago

> Their stories tend to be very agenda driven and the facts tend to be subservient to the narrative, a policy which is deemed acceptable because it "starts a conversation" or the story is "probably true for someone". This is typical of the left wing. This is hardly an issue isolated to "left wing" media.

itbeho 11y ago
I agree. But what percentage of the media would you consider "left wing"? Or "right wing"?
afsina 11y ago
To be fair, when it comes to attacking corporations (biased or not) , this is mostly a left wing media thing.
- cruise02 11y ago
  And when it comes to supporting corporations (biased or not), this is mostly a right wing media thing. Just because they do it from opposing sides doesn't make it ok.

swehner 11y ago

Calling the NYT left-wing is pretty amusing.

benten10 11y ago
s/he meant "relatively left-wing (from my perspective)", implying his position is to the right of wherever NYT may be.
Nadya 11y ago
Thinking the NYT isn't left-wing shows more how far left you must stand. Even the NYT calls itself liberal/left. Even after 11 years - and as an independent - I see the NYT as decidedly left. >“Of course it is....These are the social issues: gay rights, gun control, abortion and environmental regulation, among others. And if you think The Times plays it down the middle on any of them, you’ve been reading the paper with your eyes closed.” — New York Times Public Editor Daniel Okrent in a July 25, 2004 column which appeared under a headline asking, “Is The New York Times a Liberal Newspaper?” [0] >Some conservative critics of the media say liberal bias exists within a wide variety of media channels, especially within the "Main Stream Media", including network news shows of CBS, ABC, and NBC, cable channels CNN, MSNBC and the former Current TV, as well as major newspapers, news-wires, and radio outlets, especially CBS News, Newsweek, and The New York Times. [1] [0] http://archive.mrc.org/biasbasics/biasbasics2.asp http://archive.mrc.org/biasbasics/biasbasics2.asp [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_bias_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_bias_in_the_United_State... E: So I'm being downvoted for pointing out that a liberal newspaper calls itself liberal? Next thing I know I'll be getting downvoted for calling Trump a right-wing presidential candidate.
- benten10 11y ago
  >So I'm being downvoted for pointing out that a liberal newspaper calls itself liberal? Next thing I know I'll be getting downvoted for calling Trump a right-wing presidential candidate. I can't downvote, but I assume you're being downvoted for calling a relatively centrist paper left-wing. Perhaps if you'd said 'liberal'/'left-leaning', the downvotes would have been lesser? Who, in your opinion, is a centrist-ish paper in the US?

ska 11y ago

Not sure if you are aware of this, but statements like: "This is typical of the left wing." Can at best undermine whatever point you are trying to make.

hnamazon123 11y ago
That was in fact a point I was making. Journalists lying to support a narrative is an extremely damaging trend that has taken hold on the left and it should be pointed out whenever it happens. This of course happens on the right but it is not moralized or justified in the same way.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Journalists lying to support a narrative is an extremely damaging trend "Trend" implies a kind of special currency for which I see no evidence; its a "trend" as old as journalism itself. But, yes, its a bad thing. > that has taken hold on the left I see no evidence that this is particularly true such that claiming it is a trait of the left, rather than a common feature not especially associated with the left, is anything but a dishonest distortion to support a narrative. > This of course happens on the right Indeed. > but it is not moralized or justified in the same way. The claim that there is some significant difference here that is worthy of attention desperately could use some support.
- cthalupa 11y ago
  He's saying that your detour into politics is damaging to your narrative.
- ska 11y ago
  That was in fact a point I was making. You may have chased a point there but you failed to make it. In practice almost all such statements (I do not differentiate the style of partisanship) are some combination of disingenuous, lazy, or unintelligent. They are far too broad a brush to be on point, and far too divisive to use unadvisedly. So much so that there is a vanishingly small chance that the addition of such a statement was both necessary to your point, and improves your clarity of argument. If your intent is intelligent discourse, compelling argument, or even just getting your opinion across clearly then use of this sort of language is actively counter to your purpose. Other aims exist, clearly.

Random_BSD_Geek 11y ago

Long before the NYT article came out I had been hearing stories like this from ex-Amazon employees. This is only anecdotal evidence, but it's the same basic anecdote again and again. The NYT article may be many sensationalized and the characters in it may not be ideal people, but the story's core message is one I've heard from a diverse set of people in a diverse set of circumstances. There seems to be a kernel of truth in there.

hnexamazon 11y ago

I also recently quit Amazon. I also worked within AWS. However, I absolutely loved it, and had the complete opposite experience to almost everything you are describing. My reasons for leaving had absolutely nothing to do with Amazon, and I would work there again. My bosses were excellent and cared deeply about my personal and professional development. I never got the impression that I was viewed as a drone. I have nothing but respect for the members of upper management that I met, who came off as smart, driven, and truly passionate about their work. I had worked at a few other companies before joining Amazon, and what I found most refreshing was that, even when I was an SDEI, my opinion about the direction of the team and the projects we were working on was sought and valued. I had never experienced that before at previous employers, where I was very much a "drone". However, AWS does promote a blunt culture where direct feedback is encouraged. Having never been encouraged at previous employers to provide thoughts on high level design and strategic roadmap decisions before, the ideas I would present would often times be suboptimal, and a senior dev would be quick to point out the flaws in my approach. Let me be clear, however, that it was always the IDEA that was attacked and never ME, personally. I found this approach incredibly helpful in my journey to become a better software engineer. I got along incredibly well with my colleagues and at no point did I ever not feel like a respected and valued member of the team. I am willing to concede that I was fortunate to have very good direct managers during my time at AWS, and while members of other teams around me also reported similar contentment when I talked to them, I did notice a team or two whose direct managers did not seem up to the task. I firmly believe your experience with a company is at least 80% your direct manager, and if I was reporting to one of those managers that I did not respect I would probably be telling a different story. This is all to say, I believe you when you say you had a terrible experience, but I wanted to balance your negative anecdote with my positive one.

hnamazon123 11y ago
That's cool, I'm glad you had a good experience. Would have been great if things had worked out differently because the project I was working on was extremely cool.

inopinatus 11y ago

I am also ex-AWS and frankly your description of the environment is the opposite of my experience. My experience was one of driven, hardworking, high-octane people working with a collegiate respect for one another under thoughtful, nuanced leadership. Was it hard work? Check. 10-12hr days were my norm. They still are, now I'm a startup. Is it a polarising workplace? Check. That internal culture is a strong flavour. And like many strong flavours, you'll either love it or hate it. If I wasn't building something I felt compelled to create, I'd go back there in a heartbeat.