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A few comments here saying that salary is the elephant in the room, which is a valid point, but I think the biggest elephant is the insecurity which lurks in th

A few comments here saying that salary is the elephant in the room, which is a valid point, but I think the biggest elephant is the insecurity which lurks in the heart of every entrepreneur. Co-founder/C_O types in their early 20s are often intimidated by people 35 and older, especially when those people have a long record of working in tech and all the war stories to prove it. The thought of hiring such a person, even when they are superbly qualified for the job and amenable to the compensation package, makes young entrepreneurs a bit uncomfortable. I think there are two specific fears that drive this feeling of discomfort. First is the fear that older employees might see right through the fact that they have no idea what they're doing and call them out on it. Second is the fear that older people will destroy the culture through their relative lack of enthusiasm and exuberance. In young founders' minds, it's better to hire someone who's been drinking legally for all of 18 months and who can be counted on to nod earnestly when you talk about "our mission" at the all-hands.

compostor42 11y ago
Never thought about it this way but there is probably a lot of truth to it. Older people have had people trying to feed them bullshit for much longer. They know what it tastes like. They can smell it coming. Of all the software places near me, the ones that are known for 60+ hour weeks exclusively target young, fresh out of school candidates who don't have the experience to know they are being treated like crap.
BinaryIdiot 11y ago
> First is the fear that older employees might see right through the fact that they have no idea what they're doing and call them out on it. I think your comment is pretty fair. For this specific point it's helped me greatly over the years to realize that, honestly, no one knows what they're doing. Entirely, anyway. People in the industry have more experience so they can make better decisions (theoretically) but much of the technology used today was created within the past few years which is an awesome equalizer.
WalterBright 11y ago
Reminds me of when I was told years ago that the army likes to get recruits at 17, because a 17 year old will buy into the indoctrination. An 18 year old will just go through the motions.
ckozlowski 11y ago
In sports (I'll use Hockey as my example here), teams that are going through a rebuilding phase to stock up on young talent will often bring in a few veterans, players who are past their prime physical ability but are deep on wisdom and experience. Their presence there is to stabilize the new players. They (often) provide a calming presence ("Down by 2 and 3 minutes left? Bah, been here plenty of times. Don't panic.") and provide leadership. However, you won't see them wearing the Captain's "C". That's the job of your young star that the team is coalescing around. Instead, he's there to be the mentor, the teacher, and build the new for their role and help them avoid mistakes. Lemieux mentored Crosby. Sergei Federov mentored and played alongside a rising Alex Ovechkin. The older guys were well established. They'd been young, excelled, failed, and seen it all. They had valuable lessons to impart and weren't as prone to panic or mood-swings. Startups have some good resources in organizations like YC to get that level of mentor-ship, but perhaps it would be worthwhile during that incubation phase to impart on those new companies not to dismiss your older workforce. Making your new founders understand that they're not to be feared, but consulted as a source of wisdom could steer them around potential mistakes, and provide that steadfastness when the cluster craps itself at 2AM. Of course you want everyone to believe in your vision, even if there's some skepticism, you need people behind you to succeed. It's perfectly reasonable to evaluate on that. But if I were in charge of an incubator, I'd be instructing that founder that, when she or he is building that young crack team, grab a few veterans as well. They're in this for the long run. The Cup awaits.
mgolawala 11y ago
Very insightful, and very well said. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you have probably hit the nail on the head. I should add though, that I think it works the other way too. You could also have the problem that the 35+ year engineers look down upon the 20 somethings and communicate it, perhaps unknowingly, in subtle, or not so subtle, ways. It almost feels like an animal hierarchy problem where you have an older male being added to the herd and the young pack leader is worried about this older male challenging him, while the older male thinks he can and should challenge the younger one. Makes me wonder then, do women face age discrimination?
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
We live in a society that still, to some degree, teaches us to respect and defer to our elders. That can add complications to a superior/report situation that many do not want to handle or which makes them uncomfortable. But while they will feel uneasy about the hire, they may not realize this is the cause of it, and they could likely chalk it up to a general 'bad gut feeling' or such, not realizing their reasoning is discriminatory.
rachelgli 11y ago
Hi Leroy, Rachel from Medium here. That's a really interesting point - I've definitely experienced this kind of tension before. Feel free to repost this comment as a response on the original Medium post.

compostor42 11y ago

Never thought about it this way but there is probably a lot of truth to it. Older people have had people trying to feed them bullshit for much longer. They know what it tastes like. They can smell it coming. Of all the software places near me, the ones that are known for 60+ hour weeks exclusively target young, fresh out of school candidates who don't have the experience to know they are being treated like crap.

BinaryIdiot 11y ago

> First is the fear that older employees might see right through the fact that they have no idea what they're doing and call them out on it. I think your comment is pretty fair. For this specific point it's helped me greatly over the years to realize that, honestly, no one knows what they're doing. Entirely, anyway. People in the industry have more experience so they can make better decisions (theoretically) but much of the technology used today was created within the past few years which is an awesome equalizer.

WalterBright 11y ago

Reminds me of when I was told years ago that the army likes to get recruits at 17, because a 17 year old will buy into the indoctrination. An 18 year old will just go through the motions.

ckozlowski 11y ago

In sports (I'll use Hockey as my example here), teams that are going through a rebuilding phase to stock up on young talent will often bring in a few veterans, players who are past their prime physical ability but are deep on wisdom and experience. Their presence there is to stabilize the new players. They (often) provide a calming presence ("Down by 2 and 3 minutes left? Bah, been here plenty of times. Don't panic.") and provide leadership. However, you won't see them wearing the Captain's "C". That's the job of your young star that the team is coalescing around. Instead, he's there to be the mentor, the teacher, and build the new for their role and help them avoid mistakes. Lemieux mentored Crosby. Sergei Federov mentored and played alongside a rising Alex Ovechkin. The older guys were well established. They'd been young, excelled, failed, and seen it all. They had valuable lessons to impart and weren't as prone to panic or mood-swings. Startups have some good resources in organizations like YC to get that level of mentor-ship, but perhaps it would be worthwhile during that incubation phase to impart on those new companies not to dismiss your older workforce. Making your new founders understand that they're not to be feared, but consulted as a source of wisdom could steer them around potential mistakes, and provide that steadfastness when the cluster craps itself at 2AM. Of course you want everyone to believe in your vision, even if there's some skepticism, you need people behind you to succeed. It's perfectly reasonable to evaluate on that. But if I were in charge of an incubator, I'd be instructing that founder that, when she or he is building that young crack team, grab a few veterans as well. They're in this for the long run. The Cup awaits.

mgolawala 11y ago

Very insightful, and very well said. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you have probably hit the nail on the head. I should add though, that I think it works the other way too. You could also have the problem that the 35+ year engineers look down upon the 20 somethings and communicate it, perhaps unknowingly, in subtle, or not so subtle, ways. It almost feels like an animal hierarchy problem where you have an older male being added to the herd and the young pack leader is worried about this older male challenging him, while the older male thinks he can and should challenge the younger one. Makes me wonder then, do women face age discrimination?

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

We live in a society that still, to some degree, teaches us to respect and defer to our elders. That can add complications to a superior/report situation that many do not want to handle or which makes them uncomfortable. But while they will feel uneasy about the hire, they may not realize this is the cause of it, and they could likely chalk it up to a general 'bad gut feeling' or such, not realizing their reasoning is discriminatory.

rachelgli 11y ago

Hi Leroy, Rachel from Medium here. That's a really interesting point - I've definitely experienced this kind of tension before. Feel free to repost this comment as a response on the original Medium post.