6 ms·

Actually, I wonder if more entrepreneurs like those Swedish geeks started to invest in North Korea would initiate a "Chinafication" process of the country.

by koevet 17y ago

mahmud 17y ago
"Entrepreneurs" are doing brisk business with North Korea, to the tune of billions every year, doing arms deals, chemicals, construction, money laundering, commodities, and what have you. Second to the Chinese, Singapore government officials are deeply tied to the NK regime, for example.
- koevet 17y ago
  Naturally I was implying some sort of legit investment, such as goods that can be mass produced and sold to the world. It may sound cynical, but a fascination indeed exists with products coming from troubled places. Furthermore, there is a whole commercial philosophy behind supporting developing countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade
  - ilkhd2 17y ago
    If you like products, coming from troubled places I'd recommend to look at American products. USA is a very troubled country. Great inequality, corruption, pollution, crime, wars. Lack of labor law. Infrastructure is falling apart. There is chance the products are by slaves somewher in midwestern states.
    - koevet 17y ago
      Sounds like you have never laid a foot on a troubled place.
      - ilkhd2 17y ago
        Sounds like somebody have never been outside downtown San Francisco/Seattle/or whatever and saw real life in USA. I lived in Florida for couple of years, and I never saw (anywhere I had a chance to live) such grotesque contrast between poverty in the inside cities and absurd richness on the oceanfront.
        mtts 17y ago
        If you think that is in any way comparable to a country like North Korea (essentially one huge prison camp) or countries in Africa such as Guinee or Congo where maybe a hundred or so people are fabulously wealthy and the rest of the population doesn't have nearly enough to eat, your sense of perspective is, I would say, seriously out of whack.
        m_eiman 17y ago
        Not to mention that little thing called "war".
        ilkhd2 17y ago
        ... with Middle East, that already cost 3*10^12 $??
        eru 17y ago
        And the US is still doing fine. They can waste a lot more resources before it's going to be as bad as in some other places.
        m_eiman 17y ago
        I'd say that that war is a lot worse in Middle East than it is in the US. Not speaking from personal experience, but having a $5000 dollar bomb dropped on you and/or your relatives seems like it'd be worse than paying for it.
        ilkhd2 17y ago
        You know what, as I mentioned in other posts - inequality in USA is already as bad as in Africa and is rapidly approaching South American's numbers. Of course bottom line is not as bad as in Africa, but quality of life for poors is already totaly incomparable with Europe. So from the point of view of Africans or Brazilians - yes USA is not that bad. From Canadian/European point view - USA is rather troubled place.
  - lsb 17y ago
    Fair Trade keeps the Triangle Trade alive and well. If you want to change things and help developing nations, make sure those developing nations have added most of the value. For example, you can buy fair trade chocolate bars, with beans bought from Ecuador at a "fair" price, whatever that means. But then the bars are made in Switzerland, or France, and the European country adds much of the value, and keeps much of the profit. Kallari Rainforest Chocolate, for example, is a cooperative making chocolate, and they pick the beans in the lowlands and drive up to the mountains and turn them into bars, and then airmail it out. If you want to make a difference, figure out where your money actually goes.
    - w00pla 17y ago
      Fair trade is a first World scam. What fair trade does is mandate the price of certain commodities. This in effect negates the biggest advantage of developing countries (cheap labour) and allows the products to be manufactured in developed countries at a "fair" price. Fair trade, along with agricultural subsidization is some of the most evil things that developed countries do.
      - snan 17y ago
        I wouldn’t be so quick in lumping these two (fair trade labeling vs agricultural subsidization) together. I agree that fairtrade has problems. However, I see merit to the idea to inform consumers about the background of certain products (information is vital to market economy, right?). Fairtrade certification doesn’t just mean “fair” prices but also some restrictions on slave labor, the right to unionize, and conservation of the environment and some other network externalities. Product labeling is a classic direct action tactic and I think it’s a great way to concisely provide information that would otherwise be obscure. This is not a subsidy and it’s not a tariff. It’s (an attempt at) providing information.
      - ilkhd2 17y ago
        Do not like it - do not buy, goddamnit. If you think that people who buy Fair Trade are stupid - no we are not, and we are doing for a reason - we do not feel good when consume something made by slaves. You can still shop for "free trade" stuff, nobody prevents you from doing that.
  - radu_floricica 17y ago
    God, I hate this kind of marketing. Until I read this link if anyone had asked me I'd say very convinced that I'm in favor of fair trade. I guess these days you have to be more careful what you support.
AlphaMonkey 17y ago
I wondered the same. North Korea is a potential gold mine. Sooner or later, the regime will collapse or open up to capitalism, and when that happens the influx of foreign capital will be enormous. When the labor costs in China become "too high", and when Vietnam is no longer "that cheap", going to NK will be the natural option. Location-wise, NK is right next to Japan, so it's less of a logistic nightmare than, say, Cambodia or Laos. In fact, I remember reading an article in the mid-1990s about an investment fund that only invested in extremely risky places, like war-torn countries in Africa, or hermit states like Belarus or NK. The idea is that when things have hit the bottom, the only possibility is for things to get better, and though the risk is very high, if 1 out of 20 countries they invested in turns out to become a stable, investor-friendly state, then the foreign investors will flock there, prices will rise, and the fund's initial investments will yield astronomical returns.
- ilkhd2 17y ago
  No, North Korea will not be a gold mine in this case, it would be yet another nail into the coffin of the western world (USA especially) , insanely, hysterically excited about it's own deindustrialization.
  - notauser 17y ago
    There's a limited supply of people in the world - about 6bn at the moment. Roughly 1bn currently live in western-style economies at the moment. Once China and India are finished industrializing (in 30 years or so?) that'll be 3bn people in advanced economies. Increasing the living standards of the remaining 3bn wouldn't impose as much of a dislocation as the current China/India affair, because it'll represent only a 100% increase in the labor pool not a 200% increase. There'll be issues about scarce resources, and some currently abundant resources will become scarce, but the cost of unskilled and semi-skilled labor won't ever be this low again.
  - AlphaMonkey 17y ago
    When I mentioned that NK could be a gold mine, what I had in mind was investments like real estate, utilities, land, agricultural commodities. My point would be clear if I had not suggested moving factories there to take advantage of cheap labor. My mistake.
AlphaMonkey 17y ago
Maybe the "Chinafication" of NK started in 2009: last year the country had its first pizzeria opened, and there was a beer ad on TV! :-) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/16/north-korea-pizza http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/16/north-korea-pizz... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8132199.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8132199.stm
dminor 17y ago
Barring a major change in government, likely not. China allows citizens to build up wealth, while North Korea tries to prevent it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/03/north-korea-won-currency-revaluation http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/03/north-korea-won-...

Actually, I wonder if more entrepreneurs like those Swedish geeks started to invest in North Korea would initiate a "Chinafication" process of the country.

by koevet 17y ago

Actually, I wonder if more entrepreneurs like those Swedish geeks started to invest in North Korea would initiate a "Chinafication" process of the country.

mahmud 17y ago

"Entrepreneurs" are doing brisk business with North Korea, to the tune of billions every year, doing arms deals, chemicals, construction, money laundering, commodities, and what have you. Second to the Chinese, Singapore government officials are deeply tied to the NK regime, for example.

koevet 17y ago
Naturally I was implying some sort of legit investment, such as goods that can be mass produced and sold to the world. It may sound cynical, but a fascination indeed exists with products coming from troubled places. Furthermore, there is a whole commercial philosophy behind supporting developing countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade
- ilkhd2 17y ago
  If you like products, coming from troubled places I'd recommend to look at American products. USA is a very troubled country. Great inequality, corruption, pollution, crime, wars. Lack of labor law. Infrastructure is falling apart. There is chance the products are by slaves somewher in midwestern states.
  - koevet 17y ago
    Sounds like you have never laid a foot on a troubled place.
    - ilkhd2 17y ago
      Sounds like somebody have never been outside downtown San Francisco/Seattle/or whatever and saw real life in USA. I lived in Florida for couple of years, and I never saw (anywhere I had a chance to live) such grotesque contrast between poverty in the inside cities and absurd richness on the oceanfront.
      - mtts 17y ago
        If you think that is in any way comparable to a country like North Korea (essentially one huge prison camp) or countries in Africa such as Guinee or Congo where maybe a hundred or so people are fabulously wealthy and the rest of the population doesn't have nearly enough to eat, your sense of perspective is, I would say, seriously out of whack.
        m_eiman 17y ago
        Not to mention that little thing called "war".
        ilkhd2 17y ago
        ... with Middle East, that already cost 3*10^12 $??
        eru 17y ago
        And the US is still doing fine. They can waste a lot more resources before it's going to be as bad as in some other places.
        m_eiman 17y ago
        I'd say that that war is a lot worse in Middle East than it is in the US. Not speaking from personal experience, but having a $5000 dollar bomb dropped on you and/or your relatives seems like it'd be worse than paying for it.
        ilkhd2 17y ago
        You know what, as I mentioned in other posts - inequality in USA is already as bad as in Africa and is rapidly approaching South American's numbers. Of course bottom line is not as bad as in Africa, but quality of life for poors is already totaly incomparable with Europe. So from the point of view of Africans or Brazilians - yes USA is not that bad. From Canadian/European point view - USA is rather troubled place.
- lsb 17y ago
  Fair Trade keeps the Triangle Trade alive and well. If you want to change things and help developing nations, make sure those developing nations have added most of the value. For example, you can buy fair trade chocolate bars, with beans bought from Ecuador at a "fair" price, whatever that means. But then the bars are made in Switzerland, or France, and the European country adds much of the value, and keeps much of the profit. Kallari Rainforest Chocolate, for example, is a cooperative making chocolate, and they pick the beans in the lowlands and drive up to the mountains and turn them into bars, and then airmail it out. If you want to make a difference, figure out where your money actually goes.
  - w00pla 17y ago
    Fair trade is a first World scam. What fair trade does is mandate the price of certain commodities. This in effect negates the biggest advantage of developing countries (cheap labour) and allows the products to be manufactured in developed countries at a "fair" price. Fair trade, along with agricultural subsidization is some of the most evil things that developed countries do.
    - snan 17y ago
      I wouldn’t be so quick in lumping these two (fair trade labeling vs agricultural subsidization) together. I agree that fairtrade has problems. However, I see merit to the idea to inform consumers about the background of certain products (information is vital to market economy, right?). Fairtrade certification doesn’t just mean “fair” prices but also some restrictions on slave labor, the right to unionize, and conservation of the environment and some other network externalities. Product labeling is a classic direct action tactic and I think it’s a great way to concisely provide information that would otherwise be obscure. This is not a subsidy and it’s not a tariff. It’s (an attempt at) providing information.
    - ilkhd2 17y ago
      Do not like it - do not buy, goddamnit. If you think that people who buy Fair Trade are stupid - no we are not, and we are doing for a reason - we do not feel good when consume something made by slaves. You can still shop for "free trade" stuff, nobody prevents you from doing that.
- radu_floricica 17y ago
  God, I hate this kind of marketing. Until I read this link if anyone had asked me I'd say very convinced that I'm in favor of fair trade. I guess these days you have to be more careful what you support.

AlphaMonkey 17y ago

I wondered the same. North Korea is a potential gold mine. Sooner or later, the regime will collapse or open up to capitalism, and when that happens the influx of foreign capital will be enormous. When the labor costs in China become "too high", and when Vietnam is no longer "that cheap", going to NK will be the natural option. Location-wise, NK is right next to Japan, so it's less of a logistic nightmare than, say, Cambodia or Laos. In fact, I remember reading an article in the mid-1990s about an investment fund that only invested in extremely risky places, like war-torn countries in Africa, or hermit states like Belarus or NK. The idea is that when things have hit the bottom, the only possibility is for things to get better, and though the risk is very high, if 1 out of 20 countries they invested in turns out to become a stable, investor-friendly state, then the foreign investors will flock there, prices will rise, and the fund's initial investments will yield astronomical returns.

ilkhd2 17y ago
No, North Korea will not be a gold mine in this case, it would be yet another nail into the coffin of the western world (USA especially) , insanely, hysterically excited about it's own deindustrialization.
- notauser 17y ago
  There's a limited supply of people in the world - about 6bn at the moment. Roughly 1bn currently live in western-style economies at the moment. Once China and India are finished industrializing (in 30 years or so?) that'll be 3bn people in advanced economies. Increasing the living standards of the remaining 3bn wouldn't impose as much of a dislocation as the current China/India affair, because it'll represent only a 100% increase in the labor pool not a 200% increase. There'll be issues about scarce resources, and some currently abundant resources will become scarce, but the cost of unskilled and semi-skilled labor won't ever be this low again.
- AlphaMonkey 17y ago
  When I mentioned that NK could be a gold mine, what I had in mind was investments like real estate, utilities, land, agricultural commodities. My point would be clear if I had not suggested moving factories there to take advantage of cheap labor. My mistake.

AlphaMonkey 17y ago

Maybe the "Chinafication" of NK started in 2009: last year the country had its first pizzeria opened, and there was a beer ad on TV! :-) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/16/north-korea-pizza http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/16/north-korea-pizz... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8132199.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8132199.stm

dminor 17y ago

Barring a major change in government, likely not. China allows citizens to build up wealth, while North Korea tries to prevent it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/03/north-korea-won-currency-revaluation http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/03/north-korea-won-...