6 ms·

Wives of Rockstar's San Diego office are up in arms over engineer treatment

57 points by rantfoil 17y ago

hipsterelitist 17y ago
You'd think after the EA wives scandal, that some action more meaningful than a strongly worded letter would be taken.
- malkia 17y ago
  Wasn't it settled, rather than setting a precedent? Might be wrong... But there was an action after it happened. But it stayed in EA: - Hourly employees - No bonuses - No royalties Off course take that with grain of salt - I doubt it applies to all EA studios.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  The only company that took the EA wives scandal to heart was EA - from what I hear from people inside it's now a much better place to work than before. Well, much better than slave work is still kind of shitty, but...
jcnnghm 17y ago
You should know the score when you go into games programming. There is a lot of demand for those jobs, so the employers can push harder than they would otherwise. This is kind of like moving next to an airport then complaining about the noise.
- gamble 17y ago
  You might be surprised by how much leverage games programmers with experience can have. Video games are like the movie industry - hard to break into, but once you're established (shipped titles) you can write your own ticket - particularly if you're willing to locate in areas with a shortage of experienced games programmers.
- cabalamat 17y ago
  > There is a lot of demand for those jobs Indeed. The problem is that lots of young programmers want ot be game developers, thinking its a really cool job. The games companies know this, and fully exploit it, wringing as much work of of employees as they can, while the employee is still naive and doesn't expect management to be utter cunts. When the employee wises up, there's always the next generation of mugs to exploit. How to fix this? I guess the important thing is to get word out that employers like Rockstar are scum who should be avoided at all costs. (caveat: I've no direct experience with Rockstar, my impression of them is based on a friend who used to work for them).
  - gaius 17y ago
    The problem is that lots of young programmers want ot be game developers, thinking its a really cool job There surely must be a limited supply of people who can do the really serious physics modeling or AI stuff. Are they subject to the same conditions? I mean, if you can do that, you can quit and go work for a hedge fund as a quant... Same long hours, 10x the pay, treated like a prize racehorse.
    - NikkiA 17y ago
      "There surely must be a limited supply of people who can do the really serious physics modeling or AI stuff. Are they subject to the same conditions?" Yes, they are, because there are still more available than needed, and 'the best' is rarely a trait that games studios look for in hiring. That said, someone with a SIGGRAPH presentation, or equivalents in AI or physics, WILL be treated with more respect in the industry. But at the end of the day, you'll still be a very disposable cog, that works the hours that management decries, or you're gone.
    - blasdel 17y ago
      Most of the labor on these Hollywood-blockbuster-style games is in art production, modelling, scripting, writing, QA -- the engines are done by much smaller teams, often at third-party companies. It's at the point where many of the better college programs oriented at the "you like playing games, so you'll obviously master making them" adolescents have given up the pretense of teaching CS or programming to their students.
wallflower 17y ago
The husband of the EA wife founded http://gamewatch.org http://gamewatch.org (a forum for open discussion of the gaming industry) The 2004 EA Spouse LiveJournal: http://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html http://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html
- dws 17y ago
  I'm wondering whether some of the Rock Star Games management got their start at EA.
  - Dobbs 17y ago
    This is standard fare for jobs in the video game industry. The only company that I've heard of that doesn't do this sorta of crap is valve where it is limited to about two months before release (The valve information is 2nd hand). I know when I worked in the video game industry about 60% of the year we worked 12+ hour days. We were just testers not even the programmers who were often there longer.
falsestprophet 17y ago
It makes my day whenever an intellectual lightweight gets together with a thesaurus.
- mahmud 17y ago
  That is the most hurtful, and the most truthful thing I have heard all day.
- mike463 17y ago
  What's clear to me is like you're inexperienced in life, she's inexperienced in english.
  - falsestprophet 17y ago
    Whomever wrote this is fluent and has idiomatic English. That is the best part about this: she believes she a gifted poet, but she really should know better. I stand by my snooty comment.
- malkia 17y ago
  Hah. Perl-esque - awful language, but huge library. Not the same - ahem awful language might or might not mean intellectual lightweight - it could be intellectual drunkard - but HUGE LIBRARY (cpan that is)...
- w00pla 17y ago
  English second language speakers (like myself) often use words out of place or the wrong words. The reasons for that is simple - often you think of something but there is no direct translation (there aren't a one to one mapping between words in languages). Another reason is that you have to keep on using new words - otherwise you will end up with the vocabulary of a five year old.
  - CamperBob 17y ago
    (Shrug) When I need to do something outside my core competency, such as publishing a letter in Farsi, I ask for help from someone qualified to do so. How hard can it be to find someone willing to look over an English letter and offer suggestions?
blackguardx 17y ago
Why only wives and no husbands? Are we still in the '50s? (I mean the 1950s)
- city41 17y ago
  Perhaps because that just happens to be the make up of the company? Nothing wrong with female devs, but if Rockstar happens to only have male devs, then yes the wives are going to be the ones complaining.
  - chipsy 17y ago
    Game developers(slightly less so publishers) are almost uniformly male-dominated. Some of it is the internal culture of most companies; some of it is external motivations and expectations that filter out women at an early stage. There are occasional efforts to seek a balance in hiring, but the market really doesn't make it easy.
- jbellis 17y ago
  Women aren't dumb enough to work 80 hour week for crap wages because video games are cool.
  - pclark 17y ago
    I found this comment insulting. Why are they dumb for working on something that they love? Just because you (heck, or even the developers wives') can't calibrate the passion for video games doesn't mean no one can.
    - petewarden 17y ago
      The dumb part isn't working long hours for a job you love. The dumb part is working for terrible wages in awful conditions and letting the value you create be captured by other people.
patio11 17y ago
I have taken the liberty of distilling the contents of the letter. I haven't substantially innovated on the content or structure, so it is still poorly organized, but hopefully it will be easier to read. Don't be too harsh on the writer: she may be ESL or have an English degree. Dear Rockstar Management: We wives of Rockstar employees are contacting you to address poor conditions in the San Diego office. Working conditions have deteriorated since March 2009, to the point where employees' lives and families are affected by them. The fault lies with management, though it is probably a result of ignorance rather than malice. Immediate steps must be taken to improve the office. Employees have suffered stress-induced illness caused by pressure from work. Several employees have been diagnosed with depression; at least one with suicidal tendencies. Rockstar has provided a full-time massuse: this will not address the causes of the stress and is insulting to employees. We understand that the video game industry experiences periodic crunch. Traditionally, teams were offered time to decompress after milestones. This policy has been abandoned. Managers at the San Diego office have instituted a de-facto policy of permanent "temporary" crunch. Employees currently work 12 hour days, including on Saturday, regardless of the status of their projects. This infringment of our rights is unacceptable. Employees seeking treatment for stress-induced illnesses have been forced to use leave to do so, because most healthcare providers are not open on Sunday. Management is dismissive of complaints. In addition to pervasive crunch, the last year has seen benefits cut. Comp time and a week of post-Christmas vacation have been eliminated. Medical benefits have also been cut, which has exacerbated the stress-induced illnesses. Non-exempt artists and designers have had overtime pay eliminated on the excuse that they are "too senior" to be non-salaried employees. One manager cusses. Our children miss their fathers. Rockstar customarily pays employees predictable bonuses. The bonuses have become unpredictable and, when not eliminated for specious reasons, are not actually paid in a timely fashion after being awarded. Raises have been below inflation for each of the past four years. Employees have been told that this is due to Rockstar not being profitable, however, Grand Theft Auto had over a billion dollars in sales. Rockstar should share the wealth with its employees. If working conditions are not improved immediately, we will be forced to sue Rockstar. Sincerely, The Wives
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
weirdkid 17y ago
Oh boo hoo. Really. Sounds exactly like every programming job back in the 90's, except these lucky bastards somehow found the time to meet girls, date them and get married.
bdr 17y ago
I really don't understand why they don't quit. Maybe making games is their dream, but obviously it's not as good as they imagined. Switch to web dev and find work instantly.
- city41 17y ago
  Or go make their own games? If word got out a bunch of Rockstar employees broke off and started their own deal, it'd get loads of free hype and press. Maybe even enough to make it viable. Isn't that pretty much what the original Diablo team did with Torchlight?
  - patio11 17y ago
    All the free press in the world won't pony up the 7 or 8 figures in capital they'd need to make a game, though. Imputed deferred wages if nothing else. Torchlight, for example, clearly cost over a million to bring to market. (Take a look at the length of their credits.) I think it is just a bad, bad industry to be in... and yet I feel its siren's call for my next app, too.
  - potatolicious 17y ago
    This phenomenon is actually responsible for practically all of Vancouver's game industry presence - nearly every shop in town is formed by pissed off ex-EA employees. It is now almost expected for a junior dev to cut their teeth at EA, and graduate to one of these studios where they will be treated like human beings.
- malkia 17y ago
  Because you've accumulated experience that's most usable in game development. The procedures, process and even testing is quite different from other places. Also it's not like that you decide to quit, and go to another work. I have a friend that moved from Heavy Iron studios to that exact same one, and he drives 100 miles back and forth (Santa Monica -> Carlsbad/OceanSide/San Diego - not exactly sure where the studio is). He moved away from Heavy Iron studios because they were told that all salaries would be halved. He's with kids, and has to react quickly. He can't let himself be laid off (on half salary), and then search. He needs to quit (so no compensation) and has to find job in maximum one two months. So here you go. He went over there, and although he's driving much - does he has much choice? Or should he start his vacation days back from a two weeks, until it accumulates to a full month and more? And at some point one would have to settle at one place - buy a house, etc.
malkia 17y ago
Please read this: http://www.indievision.org/?p=1504 http://www.indievision.org/?p=1504
gaius 17y ago
Having your wife contact your boss does not a strong negotiating position make.
- malkia 17y ago
  Well no. You might as well tell your boss: "I'm no longer a team player. I am a family player right now". I've told that to my boss, because I knew my boss would understand me. But not everyone is like that. It's not manager problem. It's an industry problem. No silver bullet...
  - gaius 17y ago
    Again, it's a matter of you telling your boss. Not letting your wife (or mother) do it for you.
- berntb 17y ago
  I rather think about the little understanding of game theory I have. "Factors outside my control will make me look for other employment in a short time, unless you give me a better deal." Think of it as the other "player" seeing you throw the steering wheel out of the car window, when playing Chicken. He knows you can't turn...
  - gaius 17y ago
    Saying that yourself is one thing - having someone say it for you merely makes you look like a weak negotiator. Joe Programmer is a ball being tossed back and forth between his boss and his wife - he has set himself up to just go wherever the stronger player sends him.
    - gabrielroth 17y ago
      If his wife is the stronger player and her interests are aligned with his own, that's not a bad thing.
      - 17y ago
dnsworks 17y ago
Should we expect anything better from an industry that exists merely to make us stupid, and further increase add and reduce ability to focus?
dlytle 17y ago
In regards to the poor English, I'm fairly confident the author may have been deliberately attempting to obscure their writing style. It's very possible that the author feels her husband would not approve of (or consent to) publishing a criticism of his employers. I can fairly easily recognize the writing styles of several dozen of my friends, and I'm not married to any of them. In any given essay/blog of that length, without employing deliberate obfuscation, someone looking for it would likely be able to spot a saying/phrase/crutch word that could identify the author. The excessive use of the thesaurus is a pretty solid indicator that the author wrote their original draft, then went through and replaced words and phrases with ones of similar meaning. For example, I wrote the above naturally, without trying to hide my writing style. Glance over the above and you'll probably notice; I have a habit of using indecisive adjectives in statements where I'm not confident that I'm 100% accurate. (Hell, I reflexively did so while writing the sentence talking about the habit!) That kind of thing can be as good as a signature. When that signature could hurt your marriage or your husband's career, looking like a 6th grade poet is a small price to pay for some insurance.
- lucifer 17y ago
  That sounds like a niche market opportunity: textwash.com?
motters 17y ago
This is interesting, because it's working conditions like these which preceded unionization of workforces in the early 20th century. When I was made redundant last year they asked if I wanted to have a union representative present. It's just part of the standard text they have to say for legal reasons, but as far as I'm aware there are no unions related to software engineering. This is probably because the industry is still fairly young.
- jcnnghm 17y ago
  And probably because it's easy to see how thoroughly unionization has thrashed other industries.
  - raganwald 17y ago
    While simultaneously the American economy grew and grew and grew in the greatest era of prosperity in the history of the world. Point: Unionization distributed wealth across the economy, building a consumer society and accelerating growth. Counter-point: The economy was growing so much for other reasons that it succeeded in spite of unionization. Discuss.
    - Alex3917 17y ago
      Because of the teachers union the general population is dumb and uneducated. Because of the automotive unions, we have no decent public transportation. And because of the doctors union, large swaths of the population have no access to healthcare and doctors have so little critical thinking ability that it takes on average seven years to diagnose a disease. Is it possible that unions made wealth more equally distributed and thus increased growth? Yes. However, using unions to increase distribution of wealth is pretty much worst imaginable way to do it.
  - camccann 17y ago
    All the more reason why the industry ought to wise up before unionization starts to look like the better option anyway. Abusive management and powerful unions are a lose-lose situation for everyone. It's basically the double-defect equilibrium in the prisoner's dilemma, which is where short-sighted self-interest so often leads.
quityourjob 17y ago
Quit your job, you stupid idiots.
johnyzee 17y ago
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/04/06/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/04/06/

57 points by rantfoil 17y ago

hipsterelitist 17y ago

You'd think after the EA wives scandal, that some action more meaningful than a strongly worded letter would be taken.

malkia 17y ago
Wasn't it settled, rather than setting a precedent? Might be wrong... But there was an action after it happened. But it stayed in EA: - Hourly employees - No bonuses - No royalties Off course take that with grain of salt - I doubt it applies to all EA studios.
potatolicious 17y ago
The only company that took the EA wives scandal to heart was EA - from what I hear from people inside it's now a much better place to work than before. Well, much better than slave work is still kind of shitty, but...

jcnnghm 17y ago

You should know the score when you go into games programming. There is a lot of demand for those jobs, so the employers can push harder than they would otherwise. This is kind of like moving next to an airport then complaining about the noise.

gamble 17y ago
You might be surprised by how much leverage games programmers with experience can have. Video games are like the movie industry - hard to break into, but once you're established (shipped titles) you can write your own ticket - particularly if you're willing to locate in areas with a shortage of experienced games programmers.
cabalamat 17y ago
> There is a lot of demand for those jobs Indeed. The problem is that lots of young programmers want ot be game developers, thinking its a really cool job. The games companies know this, and fully exploit it, wringing as much work of of employees as they can, while the employee is still naive and doesn't expect management to be utter cunts. When the employee wises up, there's always the next generation of mugs to exploit. How to fix this? I guess the important thing is to get word out that employers like Rockstar are scum who should be avoided at all costs. (caveat: I've no direct experience with Rockstar, my impression of them is based on a friend who used to work for them).
- gaius 17y ago
  The problem is that lots of young programmers want ot be game developers, thinking its a really cool job There surely must be a limited supply of people who can do the really serious physics modeling or AI stuff. Are they subject to the same conditions? I mean, if you can do that, you can quit and go work for a hedge fund as a quant... Same long hours, 10x the pay, treated like a prize racehorse.
  - NikkiA 17y ago
    "There surely must be a limited supply of people who can do the really serious physics modeling or AI stuff. Are they subject to the same conditions?" Yes, they are, because there are still more available than needed, and 'the best' is rarely a trait that games studios look for in hiring. That said, someone with a SIGGRAPH presentation, or equivalents in AI or physics, WILL be treated with more respect in the industry. But at the end of the day, you'll still be a very disposable cog, that works the hours that management decries, or you're gone.
  - blasdel 17y ago
    Most of the labor on these Hollywood-blockbuster-style games is in art production, modelling, scripting, writing, QA -- the engines are done by much smaller teams, often at third-party companies. It's at the point where many of the better college programs oriented at the "you like playing games, so you'll obviously master making them" adolescents have given up the pretense of teaching CS or programming to their students.

wallflower 17y ago

The husband of the EA wife founded http://gamewatch.org http://gamewatch.org (a forum for open discussion of the gaming industry) The 2004 EA Spouse LiveJournal: http://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html http://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html

dws 17y ago
I'm wondering whether some of the Rock Star Games management got their start at EA.
- Dobbs 17y ago
  This is standard fare for jobs in the video game industry. The only company that I've heard of that doesn't do this sorta of crap is valve where it is limited to about two months before release (The valve information is 2nd hand). I know when I worked in the video game industry about 60% of the year we worked 12+ hour days. We were just testers not even the programmers who were often there longer.

falsestprophet 17y ago

It makes my day whenever an intellectual lightweight gets together with a thesaurus.

mahmud 17y ago
That is the most hurtful, and the most truthful thing I have heard all day.
mike463 17y ago
What's clear to me is like you're inexperienced in life, she's inexperienced in english.
- falsestprophet 17y ago
  Whomever wrote this is fluent and has idiomatic English. That is the best part about this: she believes she a gifted poet, but she really should know better. I stand by my snooty comment.
malkia 17y ago
Hah. Perl-esque - awful language, but huge library. Not the same - ahem awful language might or might not mean intellectual lightweight - it could be intellectual drunkard - but HUGE LIBRARY (cpan that is)...
w00pla 17y ago
English second language speakers (like myself) often use words out of place or the wrong words. The reasons for that is simple - often you think of something but there is no direct translation (there aren't a one to one mapping between words in languages). Another reason is that you have to keep on using new words - otherwise you will end up with the vocabulary of a five year old.
- CamperBob 17y ago
  (Shrug) When I need to do something outside my core competency, such as publishing a letter in Farsi, I ask for help from someone qualified to do so. How hard can it be to find someone willing to look over an English letter and offer suggestions?

blackguardx 17y ago

Why only wives and no husbands? Are we still in the '50s? (I mean the 1950s)

city41 17y ago
Perhaps because that just happens to be the make up of the company? Nothing wrong with female devs, but if Rockstar happens to only have male devs, then yes the wives are going to be the ones complaining.
- chipsy 17y ago
  Game developers(slightly less so publishers) are almost uniformly male-dominated. Some of it is the internal culture of most companies; some of it is external motivations and expectations that filter out women at an early stage. There are occasional efforts to seek a balance in hiring, but the market really doesn't make it easy.
jbellis 17y ago
Women aren't dumb enough to work 80 hour week for crap wages because video games are cool.
- pclark 17y ago
  I found this comment insulting. Why are they dumb for working on something that they love? Just because you (heck, or even the developers wives') can't calibrate the passion for video games doesn't mean no one can.
  - petewarden 17y ago
    The dumb part isn't working long hours for a job you love. The dumb part is working for terrible wages in awful conditions and letting the value you create be captured by other people.

patio11 17y ago

I have taken the liberty of distilling the contents of the letter. I haven't substantially innovated on the content or structure, so it is still poorly organized, but hopefully it will be easier to read. Don't be too harsh on the writer: she may be ESL or have an English degree. Dear Rockstar Management: We wives of Rockstar employees are contacting you to address poor conditions in the San Diego office. Working conditions have deteriorated since March 2009, to the point where employees' lives and families are affected by them. The fault lies with management, though it is probably a result of ignorance rather than malice. Immediate steps must be taken to improve the office. Employees have suffered stress-induced illness caused by pressure from work. Several employees have been diagnosed with depression; at least one with suicidal tendencies. Rockstar has provided a full-time massuse: this will not address the causes of the stress and is insulting to employees. We understand that the video game industry experiences periodic crunch. Traditionally, teams were offered time to decompress after milestones. This policy has been abandoned. Managers at the San Diego office have instituted a de-facto policy of permanent "temporary" crunch. Employees currently work 12 hour days, including on Saturday, regardless of the status of their projects. This infringment of our rights is unacceptable. Employees seeking treatment for stress-induced illnesses have been forced to use leave to do so, because most healthcare providers are not open on Sunday. Management is dismissive of complaints. In addition to pervasive crunch, the last year has seen benefits cut. Comp time and a week of post-Christmas vacation have been eliminated. Medical benefits have also been cut, which has exacerbated the stress-induced illnesses. Non-exempt artists and designers have had overtime pay eliminated on the excuse that they are "too senior" to be non-salaried employees. One manager cusses. Our children miss their fathers. Rockstar customarily pays employees predictable bonuses. The bonuses have become unpredictable and, when not eliminated for specious reasons, are not actually paid in a timely fashion after being awarded. Raises have been below inflation for each of the past four years. Employees have been told that this is due to Rockstar not being profitable, however, Grand Theft Auto had over a billion dollars in sales. Rockstar should share the wealth with its employees. If working conditions are not improved immediately, we will be forced to sue Rockstar. Sincerely, The Wives

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

weirdkid 17y ago

Oh boo hoo. Really. Sounds exactly like every programming job back in the 90's, except these lucky bastards somehow found the time to meet girls, date them and get married.

bdr 17y ago

I really don't understand why they don't quit. Maybe making games is their dream, but obviously it's not as good as they imagined. Switch to web dev and find work instantly.

city41 17y ago
Or go make their own games? If word got out a bunch of Rockstar employees broke off and started their own deal, it'd get loads of free hype and press. Maybe even enough to make it viable. Isn't that pretty much what the original Diablo team did with Torchlight?
- patio11 17y ago
  All the free press in the world won't pony up the 7 or 8 figures in capital they'd need to make a game, though. Imputed deferred wages if nothing else. Torchlight, for example, clearly cost over a million to bring to market. (Take a look at the length of their credits.) I think it is just a bad, bad industry to be in... and yet I feel its siren's call for my next app, too.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  This phenomenon is actually responsible for practically all of Vancouver's game industry presence - nearly every shop in town is formed by pissed off ex-EA employees. It is now almost expected for a junior dev to cut their teeth at EA, and graduate to one of these studios where they will be treated like human beings.
malkia 17y ago
Because you've accumulated experience that's most usable in game development. The procedures, process and even testing is quite different from other places. Also it's not like that you decide to quit, and go to another work. I have a friend that moved from Heavy Iron studios to that exact same one, and he drives 100 miles back and forth (Santa Monica -> Carlsbad/OceanSide/San Diego - not exactly sure where the studio is). He moved away from Heavy Iron studios because they were told that all salaries would be halved. He's with kids, and has to react quickly. He can't let himself be laid off (on half salary), and then search. He needs to quit (so no compensation) and has to find job in maximum one two months. So here you go. He went over there, and although he's driving much - does he has much choice? Or should he start his vacation days back from a two weeks, until it accumulates to a full month and more? And at some point one would have to settle at one place - buy a house, etc.

malkia 17y ago

Please read this: http://www.indievision.org/?p=1504 http://www.indievision.org/?p=1504

gaius 17y ago

Having your wife contact your boss does not a strong negotiating position make.

malkia 17y ago
Well no. You might as well tell your boss: "I'm no longer a team player. I am a family player right now". I've told that to my boss, because I knew my boss would understand me. But not everyone is like that. It's not manager problem. It's an industry problem. No silver bullet...
- gaius 17y ago
  Again, it's a matter of you telling your boss. Not letting your wife (or mother) do it for you.
berntb 17y ago
I rather think about the little understanding of game theory I have. "Factors outside my control will make me look for other employment in a short time, unless you give me a better deal." Think of it as the other "player" seeing you throw the steering wheel out of the car window, when playing Chicken. He knows you can't turn...
- gaius 17y ago
  Saying that yourself is one thing - having someone say it for you merely makes you look like a weak negotiator. Joe Programmer is a ball being tossed back and forth between his boss and his wife - he has set himself up to just go wherever the stronger player sends him.
  - gabrielroth 17y ago
    If his wife is the stronger player and her interests are aligned with his own, that's not a bad thing.
    - 17y ago

dnsworks 17y ago

Should we expect anything better from an industry that exists merely to make us stupid, and further increase add and reduce ability to focus?

dlytle 17y ago

In regards to the poor English, I'm fairly confident the author may have been deliberately attempting to obscure their writing style. It's very possible that the author feels her husband would not approve of (or consent to) publishing a criticism of his employers. I can fairly easily recognize the writing styles of several dozen of my friends, and I'm not married to any of them. In any given essay/blog of that length, without employing deliberate obfuscation, someone looking for it would likely be able to spot a saying/phrase/crutch word that could identify the author. The excessive use of the thesaurus is a pretty solid indicator that the author wrote their original draft, then went through and replaced words and phrases with ones of similar meaning. For example, I wrote the above naturally, without trying to hide my writing style. Glance over the above and you'll probably notice; I have a habit of using indecisive adjectives in statements where I'm not confident that I'm 100% accurate. (Hell, I reflexively did so while writing the sentence talking about the habit!) That kind of thing can be as good as a signature. When that signature could hurt your marriage or your husband's career, looking like a 6th grade poet is a small price to pay for some insurance.

lucifer 17y ago
That sounds like a niche market opportunity: textwash.com?

motters 17y ago

This is interesting, because it's working conditions like these which preceded unionization of workforces in the early 20th century. When I was made redundant last year they asked if I wanted to have a union representative present. It's just part of the standard text they have to say for legal reasons, but as far as I'm aware there are no unions related to software engineering. This is probably because the industry is still fairly young.

jcnnghm 17y ago
And probably because it's easy to see how thoroughly unionization has thrashed other industries.
- raganwald 17y ago
  While simultaneously the American economy grew and grew and grew in the greatest era of prosperity in the history of the world. Point: Unionization distributed wealth across the economy, building a consumer society and accelerating growth. Counter-point: The economy was growing so much for other reasons that it succeeded in spite of unionization. Discuss.
  - Alex3917 17y ago
    Because of the teachers union the general population is dumb and uneducated. Because of the automotive unions, we have no decent public transportation. And because of the doctors union, large swaths of the population have no access to healthcare and doctors have so little critical thinking ability that it takes on average seven years to diagnose a disease. Is it possible that unions made wealth more equally distributed and thus increased growth? Yes. However, using unions to increase distribution of wealth is pretty much worst imaginable way to do it.
- camccann 17y ago
  All the more reason why the industry ought to wise up before unionization starts to look like the better option anyway. Abusive management and powerful unions are a lose-lose situation for everyone. It's basically the double-defect equilibrium in the prisoner's dilemma, which is where short-sighted self-interest so often leads.

quityourjob 17y ago

Quit your job, you stupid idiots.

johnyzee 17y ago

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/04/06/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/04/06/