5 ms·

My post will sound cynical or judgmental, but I really don't understand the real value in these coding boot camps. Programming is so easy to learn on your own.

by dudul 11y ago

My post will sound cynical or judgmental, but I really don't understand the real value in these coding boot camps. Programming is so easy to learn on your own. Books, blogs, meetups, tutorials, why would someone spend thousands of dollars to attend a 4 weeks boot camp and learn essentially the same thing?

mgirdley 11y ago
Bootcamp founder here. There's a big difference between learning enough to tinker with code and enough to work professionally at it. The vast majority of people don't have the network, self-motivation or ability to get to a level where they can work professionally as a dev.
- dudul 11y ago
  What is the added value of the bootcamp compared to a good set of books, a couple of meetups where you can meet great mentors and some tutorials online? I've interviewed candidates whose single "experience" was a code bootcamp and they were terrible. I think that propagating the myth that a couple week bootcamp can teach you how to be a professional developer is insulting to developers.
  - mgirdley 11y ago
    I think there's a wide spectrum of bootcamps. Some are elite and some aren't. It's important to recognize bootcamp grads for what they are: people who've been coding for 3-4 months max. Many folks expect them to be seasoned devs with 5 yrs experience but they truly are entry-level. Most people, as I said, are missing motivation, structure, connections and auto-didactic skills to even get to the point of doing Hello World. [Oh, and if you interviewed someone who'd been to a 4-week (?) bootcamp, that explains why they couldn't do much. Nothing great in life is accomplished by working for 4-weeks.]
    - mdaniel 11y ago
      I had to look up "didactic" to remember what it meant, and I learned that it has a negative connotation (according to this one dictionary, at least) http://i.word.com/idictionary/didactic http://i.word.com/idictionary/didactic
      - zem 11y ago
        "autodidactic" is "autodidact" + "-ic" rather than "auto-" + "didactic"; this is not a pedantic distinction because "autodidact" has mostly positive connotations, whereas "didactic", as you note, often has connotations of unwanted moralising.
        mdaniel 11y ago
        English drives me crazy and it's my native tongue
        zem 11y ago
        the same features make it a wonderfully fun language though :) my favourite example of how building up a word differently changes its meaning is inflammable (inflame + -able, rather than in- + flammable)
    - Taylor_OD 11y ago
      Can I ask what bootcamp? I'm a technical recruiter in Chicago and see a lot of Bootcamp resumes come across my desk. I placed a dev bootcamp developer once but other then that I haven't been able to get them interviews because of the stigma behind bootcamps. My theory has been that people with a math or science degree that join a bootcamp are much more likely to get a job than those from other walks of life. Do you see this as well?
      - reagency 11y ago
        The question isn't bootcamp vs STEM Bachelors. It is STEM bootcsmp vs English Bachelors or No Bachelors. Boot camp is essentially equivalent to one good semester of college. The most calale first-year college students are ready for a internship, not professional programming job.
  - runamok 11y ago
    I think it can fill a valuable niche telling you the "right way" to do things. Such as using an ide/linters, testing, a code repo, virtual servers, etc. When you first try to learn to program you often hack things together to get them working and that's good enough. A good boot camp has the opportunity to instill good taste in a new programmer before they learn bad habits.
mcosta 11y ago
Boot camps are great for learning a specific technology. But you can't learn to program in 2-4 weeks. I mean, you can copy paste some stuff and make it nearly work, but not tackle real problems. CRUD is ok for a bootcamp.
bitwize 11y ago
Programming is easy for you to learn, because it is interesting. But now that "coding" is "important for everyone" there are millions of humans who thought nothing of programming -- besides that it's something smart people like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg do that made them rich -- who suddenly have to learn it, or think they have to, to better their fortunes. They need to be taught; they haven't the motivation to grovel through man pages, howtos, or books like you and I. And they need to get up to speed fast. Enter bootcamps.
joyeuse6701 11y ago
enforced structure.
- mgirdley 11y ago
  Yup, excellent correction. Thanks.

by dudul 11y ago

mgirdley 11y ago

Bootcamp founder here. There's a big difference between learning enough to tinker with code and enough to work professionally at it. The vast majority of people don't have the network, self-motivation or ability to get to a level where they can work professionally as a dev.

dudul 11y ago
What is the added value of the bootcamp compared to a good set of books, a couple of meetups where you can meet great mentors and some tutorials online? I've interviewed candidates whose single "experience" was a code bootcamp and they were terrible. I think that propagating the myth that a couple week bootcamp can teach you how to be a professional developer is insulting to developers.
- mgirdley 11y ago
  I think there's a wide spectrum of bootcamps. Some are elite and some aren't. It's important to recognize bootcamp grads for what they are: people who've been coding for 3-4 months max. Many folks expect them to be seasoned devs with 5 yrs experience but they truly are entry-level. Most people, as I said, are missing motivation, structure, connections and auto-didactic skills to even get to the point of doing Hello World. [Oh, and if you interviewed someone who'd been to a 4-week (?) bootcamp, that explains why they couldn't do much. Nothing great in life is accomplished by working for 4-weeks.]
  - mdaniel 11y ago
    I had to look up "didactic" to remember what it meant, and I learned that it has a negative connotation (according to this one dictionary, at least) http://i.word.com/idictionary/didactic http://i.word.com/idictionary/didactic
    - zem 11y ago
      "autodidactic" is "autodidact" + "-ic" rather than "auto-" + "didactic"; this is not a pedantic distinction because "autodidact" has mostly positive connotations, whereas "didactic", as you note, often has connotations of unwanted moralising.
      - mdaniel 11y ago
        English drives me crazy and it's my native tongue
        zem 11y ago
        the same features make it a wonderfully fun language though :) my favourite example of how building up a word differently changes its meaning is inflammable (inflame + -able, rather than in- + flammable)
  - Taylor_OD 11y ago
    Can I ask what bootcamp? I'm a technical recruiter in Chicago and see a lot of Bootcamp resumes come across my desk. I placed a dev bootcamp developer once but other then that I haven't been able to get them interviews because of the stigma behind bootcamps. My theory has been that people with a math or science degree that join a bootcamp are much more likely to get a job than those from other walks of life. Do you see this as well?
    - reagency 11y ago
      The question isn't bootcamp vs STEM Bachelors. It is STEM bootcsmp vs English Bachelors or No Bachelors. Boot camp is essentially equivalent to one good semester of college. The most calale first-year college students are ready for a internship, not professional programming job.
- runamok 11y ago
  I think it can fill a valuable niche telling you the "right way" to do things. Such as using an ide/linters, testing, a code repo, virtual servers, etc. When you first try to learn to program you often hack things together to get them working and that's good enough. A good boot camp has the opportunity to instill good taste in a new programmer before they learn bad habits.

mcosta 11y ago

Boot camps are great for learning a specific technology. But you can't learn to program in 2-4 weeks. I mean, you can copy paste some stuff and make it nearly work, but not tackle real problems. CRUD is ok for a bootcamp.

bitwize 11y ago

Programming is easy for you to learn, because it is interesting. But now that "coding" is "important for everyone" there are millions of humans who thought nothing of programming -- besides that it's something smart people like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg do that made them rich -- who suddenly have to learn it, or think they have to, to better their fortunes. They need to be taught; they haven't the motivation to grovel through man pages, howtos, or books like you and I. And they need to get up to speed fast. Enter bootcamps.

joyeuse6701 11y ago

enforced structure.

mgirdley 11y ago
Yup, excellent correction. Thanks.